Pricing our work through Ecabinets

John Franzino · Post by **John Franzino** » Tue, Mar 27 2007, 6:34PM

Does anyone actually price entire jobs using this software? I am constantly at my wits when pricing jobs. it seems that the small jobs
I price too high and the big jobs I price too low. I recently priced a kitchen out at $ 84,000.00 I was the low bidder but didnt get the job because the customer wanted it sooner than I could have provided. He went with the next higher bidder which was $ 120,000.00 I dont know how I was off by over $ 30,000.00 I gues my question is if anyone out there has set up ecabinets to do all the pricing and if they have any tips on doing it. Most of my estimates are based on designer drawings so it's a waste of time, or so I think, to sit down and \"redesign\" a Kitchen that was already designed and approved by the customer. Is there a way to use ecabinets as an estimator without designing the cabinets in the program. Stupid question?

John

Michael Yeargain · Post by **Michael Yeargain** » Tue, Mar 27 2007, 8:17PM

John Franzino,

I don't know if this will hepl. But,

I did use e_cabinet system to help decide my pricing. Basicly pluging in the needed information. and generating a cost for particular cabinets such as std base & std uppers std fridge std bank of drawers and std pantry cabinets alike. I then made a spread sheet to accept the Lft of wall and base and then added the special (fridge and pantry) type cabinets to the end. So in the quickest format that works for me. Lft of base and wall X $ plus fridge unit <36\" plus pantry units <36\"= cost plus tax.

This method helps me get a very quick quote out and drawings of course are as needed and take a day or two. Depending on production demand.

I hope this helps and does not cause any confusion. This is just a method that works for me.

Roger Kirkpatrick · Post by **Roger Kirkpatrick** » Tue, Mar 27 2007, 8:36PM

John,
I price from the material that e-cabinet outputs, after I design the job.
I input into a spread sheet.
I would also like to see if anyone uses e-cabinets to price a complete job.

DaleKern · Post by **DaleKern** » Tue, Mar 27 2007, 9:47PM

John,

I use eCabs to determine the COST of entire job, but I determine my PRICE based on the market I'm in. For example, if I know a given neighborhood uses two or three established kitchen cabinet suppliers I determine what they would charge for a kitchen. I go into these places with a set of prints and ask for a quick, ballpark quote. It's interesting to be the customer for a day. This will give me some baseline to determine how high or low I should price my work. I work in area surrounding Chicago - some people won't flinch to pay $1,200 per foot for a high end kitchen. If you travel 10 miles, the same kitchen won't sell for $600. Now, I'm not advicating gouging a customer, but I do think it is fair to market my product based on similar suppliers in a given area. I have found out the hard way if your price is too high for a market - you will get laughed at. Likewise if your price is too low for a market - you will not be respected.

The homework is time consuming but very valuable. What I have learned is not to spend too much time trying to market a product that won't sell due to the PERCEIVED customers' value (whether high or low). If I want to sell profitably to the low end I focus my effort on making an inexpensive cabinet (epoxy drawer slides, 1/2\" plywood boxes, inset doors with plywood panels, etc). If I want to sell the the high end, I need to make sure my product will compete to justify my prices (full ext. ball bearing slides, all 3/4\" plywood box, raised panel doors with multi-step finishes, etc.). I strictly use eCabs to verify my potential profit on a given job based on the market I'm trying to play in.

Hope this helps a little.

Dale

DaleKern · Post by **DaleKern** » Wed, Mar 28 2007, 6:31AM

And another thing...

Please don't take my last posting wrong.... I still have no idea how to price my work 50% of the time....

* I will intentionally overbid a job I don't really want - and win it because I was the lowest bidder..

* I bid many jobs real tight to try to please a customers that deserve a break - and still be accused of trying to rip them off...

* I will bid a job \"fat\" and find out I was the lowest bidder by 20%...

Go figure...

None of us will ever be done learning how to price our work. We are shooting at a moving, unpredictable target.

I am a one man shop and look for patient customers - I often loose jobs because I can't meet their deadlines. I look at that as a good thing too, it's another way to qualify a customer. Does he/she want it fast or done right? If they choose the latter, then I can focus on doing my best work yet - everytime.

Dale

Kerry Fullington · Post by **Kerry Fullington** » Wed, Mar 28 2007, 7:28AM

John,
I think that eCabinets is still very weak in the area of pricing for custom work. I use eCabinets to calculate the materials, Which it does very well, then I use that bill of materials to enter information into a spread sheet to calculate my labor.
I think that labor is best calculated by breaking cabinets down into all of their basic components and then assigning labor values to each component. The more of each component that you use the more labor. This also lets you assign different labor rates to different components so that the guy who is unloading the truck isn't using the same labor rate as the guy that is finishing.
This takes a little bit of work on your part to get it set up but is worth it in the end.
My spread sheet isn't as detailed as I would like it but it works for now. Dan and I have visited about him creating a software that would have a lot more flexibility than my spread sheet.
This is how it works
Take sheet stock for instance. For a couple of jobs you keep track of how much time it takes to order, unload, stock, handle, cut out, machine, sand, assemble, and install \"X\" number of sheets for a job. Sheets are broken down to square foot or square inch if you want and the minutes of labor that it takes to accomplish the tasks listed above are assigned at labor rate A, B, or C. If a job is big or small it takes all of these tasks to process sheet stock. The key is more square feet of material used, more labor is assigned. Ideally I would have check boxes to add or subtract different tasks if they were skipped on a job.
Doors are handled the same way. eCabinets tells you how many doors you use. You enter this number of doors and labor values are added to build, sand, sort, bore for hinges, attach hinges, finish, hang and adjust doors on cabinets. If you outsource you would apply no labor value to the build section. More doors + more labor added.
This all extends to every component. If you have corbels, radius corners, lazy susans, trash bins, roll out shelving, Moldings. All of these items have a calculated labor amount assigned to them either by the each or by the foot so you can use eCabinets to calculate the materials and use the materials to calculate the labor broken down by component.
Finishing needs to have check boxes for multiple steps so you can assign labor for staining, distressing, glazing, sealing and top coating. You would just check of each step you are using for a particular job and labor would be added to every square foot of the associated material.

This can become very accurate after you analyze a few jobs and insert the correct labor values. You know how long it takes to cut out 25 sheets of material. You divide the material by sheet and your time by minute and you now have how many minutes per square foot of material you need for busting panels. You assign a labor rate to this and you are set.

I hope this makes sense.

This takes some work to set up but would give us all the most accurate labor calculations that are possible.

The eCabinet guys could work this into the program and we wouldn't have to enter the material count because eCabinets already knows all of the materials and components.

Kerry

Francis Samson · Post by **Francis Samson** » Wed, Mar 28 2007, 10:22AM

John

I agree with Kerry for the pricing, i'm a micro business compare to the big ones surrounding me and a lot of times, i make my plans, print a render of the kitchen or what ever i'm doing and i take the time to go see some competitors to get a ball park pricing and in most case they look at me and ask me where i got this plan from!!!! With a pricing that i would qualify as ridicule some times, since they have all the man power and machinery that comes out of there... you know where! So the best way i found out to price is with the hours related to your work being involved depending on the quality and craftmanship. I always builded every cabinets with the time/cost per hours of every step in building one cabinet and i would say that the soft. his giving me a fair pricing for my work always keeping in mind that i do the best jobs on the market and that my customers need to prove me that they can do business with me! I might sound selfish or in french \"pretentieux\" but in my mind i do not need them, they need me!
So, the program is quite right and accurate if you haved put your hours for each cabinet and that your material pricing is up to date with the market, plus keep i mind that your overhead cost and profit margin is always based on what you decide it to be and not what customers want it to be.

We are all artists in our field and those who thinks that what we are doing is easy and shouldn't be expensive, well, are totally wrong considering the facts that 90% of the time we over do our jobs with details and quality that they can't understand!

In conclusion, i take the time to make sure that what i'm building in the cpu. is honnest and accurate as per the pricing and that if they don't have the money, well they ain't gone a have my candys!!!!

I'ved been rob by customers before and now, my work and my family are way to important for me to let anybody else tell me what to do and how to do it!

Enjoy your passion and don't be cheap, you're the best in your field!!!!!!!!!!

Francis

Peter Walsh · Post by **Peter Walsh** » Wed, Mar 28 2007, 10:59AM

John,
I price all my jobs using eCab for base pricing. However, I am careful to make sure that I enter labor costs for each cabinet in all the areas on the labor list. Now that the board stock bugs seem to be cleaned up I can take the materials cost right off eCab if I have kept my materials costs up-to-date. I check all wood costs by phone the day I am going to run the cost sheet..
To all of this, I add freight, finishing, delivery, etc. to round out the job.

If you are getting all your jobs, you are probably too low, You should be losing a few because you are too high (notwithstanding an aggressive bid because there is no work in-house). No one has a magic formula, but time will usually move us into a comfort zone in our own market where we will get referrals on the price levels we want to work at.

I always tell my satisfied customers when some one asks them what they paid, to add a few thousand to the price because I wouldn't do the next one (like that one) for the same price. This can allow you to creep up your pricing over time and chances are, you wouldn't do it for the same price anyway.
Good luck on this, we all struggle with it.
regards,

John Franzino · Post by **John Franzino** » Wed, Mar 28 2007, 2:28PM

Thanks for all the input. I would also like to see some kind of spread sheet or cost estimating feature built into the program that lets us cost a job without actually designing and building the cabinets within the program. Like I said most of my work comes from designers that hand me a full set of measured drawings approved by the customer already. I would rather input the size of cabinets # of drawers and doors and all the hardware and molding involved then if I get the job I can \"hit a button \" and place the order for the hardware and components I want to buy through the network. I am very accurate with the cost of materials but I struggle with the time and labor part of it. I started keeping job sheets to caculate the hrs I spend on each project. but it will take some time to get enough input doing this.

My biggest problem is not being confident with my prices. I could have made money with that $ 84,000.00 bid I did but I could have made a lot more charging the $ 120,000.00

I second guess myself too much and change my pricing to be too much or too little. I'm pricing a kitchen now that has 62 feet of cabinets finished with a colored laquer and glaze. My price came to $ 65,000.00
I figured $ 22,000.00 in materials and 600 man hrs of labor. In my area high end work goes for 1000.00 to 1200.00 a ft. We'll see how it goes.

Thanks everyone

John

greg youngken · Post by **greg youngken** » Wed, Mar 28 2007, 6:06PM

John, nice sounding market,
I'm fairly new to e-cabs and plan on using it to price when I have a completed design. But there are allot of times when the price (or a good estimate) comes before the completed e-cabs design. I use a per ft. price I have developed by carefully determining several factors, the overhead, the labor rate average including all company matched tax issues, materials, it's a good idea to know what it really cost to produce a job. then you can add in your material markup and proffit depending on what the market will bare. I have a couple of different per ft. rates for different types of construction , all Ply/ or not, then I charge for each drawer or extra goodys.
There are two really good articals about pricing in the last Two issues of CWB (Custom Woodworking Business) they explian allot better at how to get the numbers, you might could find them at http://WWW.ISWONLINE.COM HTH... the only stupid question is the one not asked
the articals are in februray and march under management strategies

John Franzino · Post by **John Franzino** » Thu, Mar 29 2007, 2:01PM

Thanks Greg I'll check it out

John