Change Mat'l Thickness Not Updating

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Chris Robinson
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Change Mat'l Thickness Not Updating

Postby Chris Robinson » Wed, May 16 2007, 8:08AM

I just processed a small frameless kitchen. The kitchen was designed on ver 2 and cut after updating to ver3. I had some issues with getting eCabs to create the twd file. After loading each cabinet into the cab editor and then resaving the job, it created the twd. Beforehand, it would lock up.

After hanging doors, I found that reveals were wrong. I started looking at each cab box width and after going back over each cabinet in eCabs vs. actual, it appears that eCabs didn't use the values I entered for material thicknesses prior to creating the twd.

I have all of my 3/4\" materials set up as .75\" and then prior to processing, I measure the materials with calipers and update the thicknesses prior to creating the twd. The differences between the actual cabinet width and designed cab width works out to be 2x .75-act. materal thickness for the sides.

Has anyone else observed this?

As a side note, I have observed greater thickness variability within a hack of sheetgoods from my supplier. I'm wondering if I should start changing thickness for each sheet at the control, manually?

Chris Robinson

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Postby BenRatt » Tue, May 22 2007, 3:44PM

Yes, this is an ongoing problem. I have noticed that it will change thicknesses sporadically. Talking with another Thermwood owner we've agreed the best way is to come up with an average thickness for plywood and design your cabinets using that thickness material. I was like you and designed everything at .75 and then thought I'd resize it. Sounds great but doesn't always work and I've come not to depend on it. The resizing option would be an awesome feature if it worked, but you can't depend on it. As far as thicknesses go, I like to use .72 for my domestic poplar core plywood.
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Postby Chris Robinson » Tue, May 22 2007, 4:52PM

I wondered if turning on \"check spoilboard\" at the control and then changing the spoilboard thickness the appropriate amount would work?

This problem is kicking my ass because I'm building frameless cabinets and with 3mm reveals, there is little room for error.

Ben, you are averaging your material thickness for that type and then editing your material database?

Chris

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Postby Michael Yeargain » Tue, May 22 2007, 5:37PM

I feel your pain guys.

I recently designed a frameless set with 23/32\" birch plywood as I normally do from my standard stock. The contractor asked to change to 5/8\" melamine. I whipped out my job file and changed material on the fly...

I produced a cut list, orderd doors and you know the rest of the story. I have a office manager that handels ordering, but did not catch this size difference because it was not a Std height kitchen. Needless to say I'm sitting on about 2 grand of doors that I have to sift through to find a cabinet that fits them.

Changing the material thickness WILL result in incorrect doors and drawers.

I don't own a router yet but this type of catastrophy will prolong my aquisition of one for sure. I am not by any way shape for or fasion disgruntled or disattisfied with the software. Just stating the facts. Sorry if I offend any one at all.
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Postby Chris Robinson » Tue, May 22 2007, 6:08PM

On the this last kitchen, I had to recut tops and decks to make it all work out right. But that is still alot of unnecessary labor costs that is causing some pain.

Right now, not being able to create twd files is putting us further and further behind schedule but the router payments don't slow down!

I know new features are nice and many may be badly needed. But I'm losing confidence in the builds. When I can't create twd files to process on the router, or start mistrusting the output, we've got some serious issues. I'm not trying to make anyone mad or sound unthankful but I've gotta make money at this.

After build3, eCab peformance went down about 50% compared to build2. And now, after build3, I can't create twd files. I didn't notice any problems with material thickness adjustments on build2 either. All reveals were correct.

For me eCabs is more than just a rendering/design tool. I need it to process parts on the router. And, they have to be correct, as designed within the software! Or else, we're stuck with $2k of useless doors, recutting parts, rebuilding cabinets etc.

Just my $0.025 worth.

Chris Robinson

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Postby BenRatt » Wed, May 23 2007, 7:51AM

Chris, what you have to do is set up a new material in your material database with the correct thickness. For instance I built my cabs with .75 material, and when I wanted to send it to the CNC I would change the thickness in the interface to .714 or whatever the material mic'd to. This is an inconsitent method and produces problems. The solution is to make a new material that is the average thickness of what you have been getting. (I have been keeping records for a while and now have a good average). Next go into your seed cabinets and change the materials for the parts one at a time (takes about 5 mins). Once your materials are right then you can get very consistent cabients (for me it's only the width that's an issue). Melamine and MDF are very consistent and I use .761 for melamine a friend of mine uses .765. The plywood is where you have problems and I use .72 as an average. Hope that helps.
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Postby Michael S Murray » Wed, May 23 2007, 8:20AM

Ben, Have you tried just changing the existing material thickness in your materials settings, I know you would have to do it with all jobs cleared.
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Walker T Scott

Postby Walker T Scott » Wed, May 23 2007, 8:40AM

Chris

Could you post the small frameless kitchen job you referred to in your first post so we can take a look at it?
Thanks walker

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Postby BenRatt » Wed, May 23 2007, 8:45AM

Michael, I did try that a while back and I ran into problems, can't remember exactly what they were. I just found it was better to enter a new material and change it all.
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Postby Forrest Chapman » Wed, May 23 2007, 10:06AM

Do not change thickness on existing materials. You will have many problems with doing this. Add a new material with average thickness then change sheet stock at room or batch level. Some members have found it prudent to create complete libraries in certain materials such as 3/4\" melamine or 3/4\" plywood with the applicable thickness. Then you can have all your materials of that type set the same thickness. Ben is correct that melamine and mdf rarely change thickness. Plywood however is constantly fluctuating and requires an average thickness be found. Try changing materials on a job and see if your doors don't remain the same size.

Forrest

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Postby Michael S Murray » Wed, May 23 2007, 11:12AM

Hey Forrest,
When you say do not change material thickness, do you also mean at the twd writing stage? I have created all my libraries and use .750 for all my 3/4 material and then measure and average the actual material and then enter this when writing twd file. It seems that occasionaly I will get a totally unexplainable cutting error that i can never completly pinpoint the cause of after double checking the actual cabinet in e-cabs.One area I seem to fight is the deck and side being flush on a frameless wall cab. No matter how carefully I measure my edgebanding thickness and adjust material thickness at twd file, I always seem to be off .005 to .015, not much, but not perfect. If you go to e-cabs and zoom in on this it appears to be perfect. I have always wondered if adjusting material at twd writing might be causing these elusive cutting problems. I would hate to abandon the material thickness change at twd writing, I do cut some melamine, and it is consistent, I also cut a good amount of prefinished domestic vcp, it stays within .010, but I have seen domestic vcp sheets vary .030 in the same unit.
What are your thoughts and experiences on the changing material thicknesses at the twd writing stage?
Thanks for your time
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Postby Forrest Chapman » Wed, May 23 2007, 11:42AM

Mike,

From my experience and others I have found that changing thickness at twd. stage in certain senarios causes problems. Hence I've never considered it reliable. One area is partitions will be off centered. The other place is dado depth will sometimes be machined as if the material is still thicker which causes the tenon to bottom out. I've found that changing sheet stock with the correct thickness is more reliable. Haven't noticed a problem with the doors. I build 2 style cabinets. Full euro and hybrid euro so the material has to remain somewhat consistant.

Forrest

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Postby Michael S Murray » Wed, May 23 2007, 6:14PM

Thanks Forrest, i neeed to look into this further, but I would hate to abandon the thickness change feature, makes it so much simpler.Any inside info. from the thm guys on this?
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Postby Mark Taylor » Wed, May 23 2007, 10:16PM

Mike,

I have to agree with Forest...we have found changing material thickness at .twd stage usually creates problems similar to Forest's description.

I have created a new set of materials with avg. thickness (.725 for 3/4 ply..etc) and build our seed cabinets with this material. We set everything accordingly and have had virtually no problems with machining since.

BTW - we also set our clearance settings to .02

We primarily build face frame cabinetry, however we've had several frameless jobs with no problems as well.

Mark

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Postby Michael S Murray » Thu, May 24 2007, 7:13AM

Thanks Mark,
Looks like I get to go through my librarys once again! I am getting very intimate with them, my fiance dreams of me paying so much attention to her.......
I am wondering if thm guys are working on this or even aware of it, the ability to change material thickness at twd is a winner if it were not causing problems. I have had the occasonial problem, but they are so hard to pinpoint, and with a hectic schedule it is hard to stop and spend any time backttracking to any extent.
Mike Murray

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