Pricing your work - maybe a bit off topic

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bob magnuson
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Pricing your work - maybe a bit off topic

Post by bob magnuson »

I have just finished the preliminary design for a kitchen I was asked to bid on. Up until now I have not done anything of this scope before. Luckily E-cabs was a great help in determining exactly what I needed in terms of materials, etc. It was also my first 'real' project done in e-cabs and though it is not perfect, I thought was pretty close for a first attempt.

Now comes the hard part, pricing my work. In the past, pricing has usually been on a per piece base. I am having a problem pricing my work on something this large, make a profit and not have the bid up out in left field.

There seems to be a few different thoughts in pricing.

1. know exactly how long it will take to machine, assemble, finish, etc. and multiply hours by a hourly rate.

2. take total material, multiply it by some percentage. (materials x 2 as an example.)

3. a set price per foot

So here comes the question...

Any thought on what is the proper way to price?

I will attach the e-cabs file. Take a look at it, let me know how you would price it. That may help me figure out what to do.

The details...

cabinets in rustic alder
42\" uppers except for the bump ups
angled, fluted returns on bump outs.
Conestoga CRP-10 in rustic alder
dovetail boxes - outsourced
undermount slides (customer wants just a standard bb slide but the upcharge to undermount isn't much)
finished exterior face of peninsula, corbels, etc.
customer will supply stain, I apply and finish

Thanks in advance for any assistance, advice, etc. that you can provide.

Bob Magnuson
RPM Woodworking
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Michael Yeargain
eCabinets Beta Tester
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Company Name: Timeless Cabinetry and Mantles
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Post by Michael Yeargain »

bob magnuson,

This topic has been brought up before many times. The one major thing you need to consider in pricing is location.

Here's a link that may help. You can also do a search on the topic \"pricing\" and it will bring up quite a few subjects.

http://www.thermwood.com/forums/viewtop ... ht=pricing

Where are you located?
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bob magnuson
New Member
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Joined: Mon, Jun 11 2007, 11:14PM

Post by bob magnuson »

Mike, thanks for the reply. I have read that message thread and a bunch others. Still a confusing topic, especially when first starting out.

For a reference, I am located just south of the Minneapolis metro area.

Bob
Michael Yeargain
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Joined: Tue, May 17 2005, 8:33PM
Company Name: Timeless Cabinetry and Mantles
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Post by Michael Yeargain »

Bob,

You mentioned several ways to accomplish this task. And, all of them will work to a certain degree. None of them (to include e_cabinets) can produce an accurate cost analysis/proposal for your job. Such as the screen moldings, which are not a normal part of this software.

My most accurate proposals have been based on a lineal foot for base and wall cabinets, and I used the software to basically determine the tall floor to ceiling cabinets, islands, bar backs and other miscellaneous cabinets that I can't define in a Ln ft format.

I also calculate my jobs based on three price ranges:

1. low end melamine cabinet paint grade
2. mid range import ply wood cabinets stain grade
3. high end birch plywood full extension slides etc. Old World finishes

I normally produce a price list for contractors that reflect that cost so I'm not faced with resubmitting a proposal because of cost issues.

Attached is an actual proposal for one of my contractors. Some information has been omitted for proprietary reasons.

I hope this helps to clarify some things for you.

And I also hope I'm not violating the forum agreement
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Michael Yeargain
eCabinets Beta Tester
Posts: 1740
Joined: Tue, May 17 2005, 8:33PM
Company Name: Timeless Cabinetry and Mantles
Location: South East

Post by Michael Yeargain »

Just for the record, everyone seems to have their own method to their own madness. And if it works for them, they will continue to use it. Others will adopt certain aspects of other peoples madness to enhance their own. Then they become lunatics... :lol:


And it appears that you are in a fine place on the map to get a great price for your work.
Intel Core i7-5820K (6-Cores, 3.3GHz, 15MB Cache)
32Gigs DDR4
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 960 4GB
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Corsair RM650
mikesand
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Location: Dallas Texs

Post by mikesand »

The most importaint factor in pricing your work is your experience, which it sounds like you are short on. So you are in the same boat as most all of us were when we started. After you get a few of these jobs under your belt you will have enough information to make accurate bids. Untill then you will have to use a generous amount of guessing.

Here are a few pointers from a guy who has made a lot of mistakes (ME).

Do not try the materials x a number method. The only way that works is if all your jobs are the same.

Linear foot pricing works very well for established shops that have a consistant standard of construction and quality. Most of the big shops do it this way, especially if you use outside sales reps.

Looking at a job and trying to figure out how long it will take and how much you need to earn for that time is a good start. The down side is that you really won't know how long it is going to take untill you have more experience. Here are some pointers to get you started. Break the job down into parts; time for design and material aquisition, time for panel processing, time for box assembly, time for lumber prep, time for face frame construction, time for door const, time for preassembly, time for finishing and time for installation. Treat each of these processes as if they were one job, resist the temptation to figure that \"you can get this done at the same time as that and save some time\", or that \"if the face frames take 5 hours then you can spend 3 hours that same day on the doors\". That is a trap, if you think the process will take 5 hours round it up to the whole day. this will tell you as accurately as possible how long it will take you to do the job. Then you have to decide how much to charge for that amount of time. The daily rate for your shop is an ever changing number and it would take a book to discuss it thuroughly, and I wont even try. Just give it the best shot you can.

For me and for most of the well run small custom shops I know the prefered method is a combination of the liners foot method and the time x rate method. It looks like this.........................

I charge $200 a foot (upper and lower or tall cabinets) for my basic cabinet. This is assuming my established construction method, particle board sheet stock, standard lumber stock (Oak, Maple, alder, pine, ceader) and basic hardware (Blum 3/4 extension Solo) and a 2 step finish. No instalation. This basic number is more complicated than it looks because it includes a lot of individual pieces of information. For example because I know that I use one drawer slide set per 2 feet (12$ a foot) I know that if I upgrade to Blum Tandem slides (50$ a set) it will add $38 a foot. So after a while I have compiled a list of \"modifiers\" that cover most of the common variables; ie. Cherry adds $55 a foot, a base cab with three drawers adds $160 a foot, a five step finish adds $60 a foot. You get the idea. These numbers come only after a lot of experience, but if you start tracking them now you will have the info you need sonner than you think.

Mike
Roger Erismann
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Location: Sacramento, CA and Rolla, Mo

Post by Roger Erismann »

I use a derivative of component pricing I start by eliminating some variables: like machine time and doors

I use production sharing or get a quote for my cutlist from a biger shop. once I have that; all that is left to do is put it together and deliver or install.

Then pricing is real simple, I charge per operation:

x amount for box assembly
x amount for hardware mounting
x amount for d-box assembly
x amount for hanging doors and drawers
cost of hardware +10%
cost of cutting + 10%
materials @ cost
job cost + 10% for admin and design time

I try to purchase as much prefinished as possible and purchase the matching stain for scribe stock and things like corbels or pillasters, touchups etc...

The above method worked for me because I could actually put a value per hour while working for myself.

If the customer wants custom made doors(they don't want connestoga or other) or the project is a unque piece of furniture then it is a straight time and material charge($50/hour)

I did it this way on my own for a couple of years and made money and a few repeat customers...


Now I work for a great company and I bid my side jobs the same way that way when I am working nights and weekends it is worth it....

Good luck
Wood Butcher/Case Maker
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