Closet Frustrations

Bob Stern · Post by **Bob Stern** » Tue, Jul 17 2007, 10:33AM

NOTE: This from a custom closet perspective.

OK, I have been working on my closet library for 6 weeks now.
I'm wondering if I have wasted 300+ hours trying to learn eCabs and build a library.

My goal was to have a software product that I could quickly design custom closets at my clients location while making a sales call. Have the software do pricing for me and present options to the customer.

As far as I know this is standard practice in the industry.
Please don't tell me that you like to go back with a proposal later!
I need to close the sale on the first trip or potentially loose the sale to a competitor who can present a proposal.

The main problems have to do with changing colors. I know there is a work around for this for display purposes.

Melamine has many different price points and I want to be able to price based on my cost.

1. When changing colors (materials) you only have the option to globally change sheet goods on the main cabinets. Not slab panel ends and other parts.
No way to globally change edgebanding, drawer fronts, molding and so forth. It is so tedious to edit all the individual cabinets for each and every option!!!!!!!!!! Forget about doing it in front of the customer.

2. Going back to add crown or base molding is just really a pain.
I shudder to think about changing colors after adding moldings.

It looks like the only way I can effectively use the product is for basic display of a default color with no edgebanding (big option in the business) and no mouldings. Then I must export the cut list and write a pricing program to do all the options. Then I must manipulate the cut list to adjust for any changes in edgebanding. The most frustrating part is this is all already done in eCabs but, without the ability to change materials easily it can't be used. This includes online ordering.

Two things would go a long way to making the product much more productive for me and I think most everyone.

1. A global change option for all different materials. ie Edgebanding, molding, drawer fronts... (similar to the board stock) I really don't think this would be terribly hard to implement. Even better, be able to define Color groupings of materials so you could make one selection and have all materials change at once.

2. An easier way of globally adding mouldings. I believe this has been discussed here before.

Not sure but, I thing almost all decent packages do these things more gracefully.

Users: Are these things important to you or only closet guys?
Thermwood Guys: Are these even on your radar for future upgrades?

Thanks for reading my long post. I am at a point where I have stopped development and must make a decision to stay with eCabs or look at other options. I really think this package is awesome and would hope that these issues could be cleared up to make it so much more user friendly.

Thanks,
Bob

Peter Walsh · Post by **Peter Walsh** » Tue, Jul 17 2007, 10:50AM

Bob,
Your problem is not unlike the one I, as a custom cabinet builder, have all the time. I completely side-step the problem you have by not making it a problem in the first place.

We all know that the wood type we choose to use in eCab will not be the exact wood color that the final job has. That's because the colors shown on the screen can never match the final product. I tell my customers this, and have, at hand, samples of the stains I would recommend. The customer understands the fallacy of choosing a screen color easily and never objects to working with an actual sample for color choice.

I also advise the customer that certain wood colors do not show detail well in eCab renderings and the purpose of the rendering is to display the structure and features, not the final color.

No one you compete with can guarantee a screen color to be an exact match. Why fight that fight? In fact, revealing this info puts the other guy at risk of providing something that doesn't exactly match a real sample.

I would show up with actual color samples and close the sale. The customer will always gravitate toward something he can hold in his hand to something he sees on the screen. If you are making a one-call close presentation, it is logical you would not know the customer's color choice beforehand, and they know that.
Anyway, those are my thoughts on helping you out of the dilemma, use or discard freely, best of luck.

regards,

Forrest Chapman · Post by **Forrest Chapman** » Tue, Jul 17 2007, 11:29AM

Bob,

You can change images on material being used in a job. You simply go into the materials and select a new image then update. You will have to close the job and reopen but it will have the new look once opened. Hope this helps a little.

Forrest

Ps. This will change only the image and nothing else.

Bob Stern · Post by **Bob Stern** » Tue, Jul 17 2007, 12:08PM

I guess my post was not too clear.

As I said earlier, for display or rendering purpose I am aware of there is a work around.

My issue is for costing and cut lists.

I have to do 1/2 hours work to get a new price because white cost $20 a sheet and a wood grain cost $28.95.

Then another 1/2 hr to change edgebanding (which effects the cut sheet).

Thermofoil mouldings are different prices based on color.

As I said earlier, the only way I see around it is to do as both Peter and Forrest has suggested. Then I must write a whole package for pricing and to adjust for edgebanding. This seems a bit redundant as eCabs already does this but you need to do many tedious steps to use it.

Knowing what little I do about programming a \"find and replace function\" should be a pretty basic thing to implement.

Still would like to know if the Thermwood team has this on their radar.

Thanks,
Bob

Kerry Fullington · Post by **Kerry Fullington** » Tue, Jul 17 2007, 12:45PM

Bob,
I only use one material for face frames and one material for each thickness of sheet stock. I use whatever image fits the occasion for rendered views of each of these and then I change the material cost to accommodate whatever material I am actually using. If I start with the job with 3/4 \"whatever\" sheet stock priced as particle board and the customer wants to go to cherry ply, I just change the price of \"Whatever\" sheet goods to the price of cherry.
I actually use two different types of sheet goods. I have plys that have a grain orientation and panel stock which does not.

If you are able to design in front of a customer, you must have customers that are much more patient than mine. My customers lose interest in the time that it takes to pull a cabinet out of a room and int the cab editor. If something takes me 30 seconds to do they have walked off.

Kerry

Bob Stern · Post by **Bob Stern** » Tue, Jul 17 2007, 1:45PM

Hi Kerry,

Yes, the customers in our industry are patent as they participate in the design of their closets. They tell us \"I want so much double hang\" \" I want a shoe rack here\" Using a good library, it should only take about 15 to 20 Min's for the basic design and basic quote. Then its on to discussing upgrades. Then you need to provide a price for upgrading to 3mm edgebanding then wood grain...

As I have researched the industry I find pricing is just crazy. Most use a crystal ball or ball park estimates like \"upgrade to wood grain is 20%.
Some just price by the linear feet.

Maybe it's the MBA in me, but I don't want to run a business that way.
I want to know what my costs really are and base by pricing on real numbers.

Kerry, that's a pretty good workaround for pricing sheet goods.

I still have the edgebanding and drawer and door front and moulding issues.

I guess I could use the same workarounds for each one. This is not an elegant solution but somewhat effective. I really would prefer not to be inputting costs in front of a customer.

What about changing from .5mil to 3mm edgebanding? Any work around for that? I could change the pricing but what about the cut sheets?

It seems everyone has \"workaround\" for the fact that changing materials is not an easy thing to do in eCabs.
This does tell me and hopefully the Thermwood team that there is a need to be able to do deal with this.

At this point with the workarounds suggested I feel I would still need to write a back end package to make it work for me.

As I have to get something in place to get my new business into production, I need make a decision this week on what direction to pursue. Spend big bucks on other software or spend big time writing a back end package that duplicates the capabilities already in the eCabs package.

Or maybe the Thermwood team could ride in on a big white horse and save the day????

Bob

Al Navas · Post by **Al Navas** » Tue, Jul 17 2007, 1:52PM

Kerry Fullington wrote:... If something takes me 30 seconds to do they have walked off...

Kerry,

Although my experience is quite limited and I have not had the opportunity to do any closets, this has also been my experience. As a result, I now carry with me full-color renditions, on glossy photo paper, of the jobs to show the client, one for them to keep, and one for me.

My copy is used to mark up changes that the client would like to see made to the design. This, in addition to my notes, really helps me tie things together a little better, compared to trying to do things on the laptop with the client present.

Another thing: I have provided copies of the initial concept for cabinets to a client, usually via e-mail, if their schedule is such that it is not feasible to meet often, and to:

1. Let them see where I am going with a particular design - in other words, to make sure I stay on target according to their wishes, and

2. Let them see that I am currently working on their job, and actually making progress. I have found this to be helpful, especially prior to the final meeting.

I wonder if others also use e-mail to update clients, and whether their experiences may have had negative impact on ultimately making the sale.

Al

Sean O' Hare · Post by **Sean O' Hare** » Tue, Jul 17 2007, 3:56PM

Bob,

Maybe I misunderstand, but you can change the material in slab ends etc. Select change sheet goods, expand the tree & pick what part(s) you want to change.
For a global door/drawer change, select all cabinets, adjust cabinet features & change doors/drawer fronts.

Does this not do what you want?

I must admit, I don't try to show edgebanding.

Sean

Glenn Warner · Post by **Glenn Warner** » Tue, Jul 17 2007, 9:21PM

Seems the main question is how many users do their designs in real time in front of customers, with the objective of closing the deal in one sitting. I do kitchens and can't imagine doing that. But in doing a quick search it seems thats standard practice in the closet segment, with other packages touting the customer interactive capability.

Bob, if I were you, I'd take the Thermwood course, take my libraries, and show the Thermwood guys exactly how you interact with the customer. With 300+ hours already invested it would be a shame (and an expense) to change horses. And closets would seem to be an important market for Thermwood.

Bob Stern · Post by **Bob Stern** » Wed, Jul 18 2007, 9:46AM

First, Thanks for everyone's response.

Sean, When I do as you say with material change, it does not give me a choice to change the end panel. (I have to use an end panel because of using shared sides. If I simply put the end back on the cab the shelves shrink and are not even with the rest. closets! go figure.)

The doors do change as you said, my mistake.

Glenn, Thanks so much for understanding that I'm in a slightly different industry. Our competition is doing these things so its expected of us. Our designs are smaller and boxes are simpler. This means it can done on site and hopefully close the sale on the first trip.

The point is not just designing in front of customers, its time.
Time is money! Whats the difference in needlessly spending 1/2 hr in front of the customer or a 1/2 hr back at the shop. Time waisted.
I will have full time designers/sales staff, that's time that they could be spending selling!

Yes, you are correct about taking the class. I thought I could just work through it here in 40 to 50 hrs. It turns out the package is more complex than I originally though. As I found out, it's actually more powerful than I thought and that brings the complexity. I think I have decent handle on the program now.

I plan on teaching classes to my new hire designers and the complexity is a concern. I plan on hiring 20 to 30 designers in the 12 to 24 months.
They only need to do room layouts with the library that has been provided for then and then be able to create an (accurate!) proposal.

I was playing around with KCDW last night and with one mouse click you could put crown on the whole closet. Takes about 10 to 15 torturous minutes in eCabs.

Having the option to change edgebanding, ALL sheet goods, and mouldings on a global basis as you can with sheet goods would make the package so much more efficient and user friendly.

I guess what I am looking for is a sign that some of these issues are on the radar for upgrades. If they are, I believe I will stay with eCabs, even if that means I have to put in 50hrs to write a back end package for the time being.

Thermwood / eCabinet Systems