Pricing with eCabinets

reedwatts · Post by **reedwatts** » Thu, Aug 30 2007, 11:41PM

As a new shop owner, I am interested in how folks set various rates in eCabinets to help them price jobs. Any ideas? Thank you.

Chris Robinson · Post by **Chris Robinson** » Fri, Aug 31 2007, 4:51PM

reedwatts,

This is how I'm using eCabinets to price my work.

I'm using the Labor Based Cost Calculations. Over time, I have compiled time studies for cabinet fabrication and installation. When I create a seed cabinet, I update it's labor costs. Base Lazy Susan cabinets take more time to assemble than a standard base, there's more time to deal with the edgebanding, etc.

But for you to get there, you have to some idea of how long it takes you to do specific tasks based upon cabinet type. Only you know your true loaded shop rate which is the other factor that is required to get an accurate price calculation.

I think after putting some time into the calculations, it's working well for me.

Chris Robinson
The Cabinet Connection

Michael Yeargain · Post by **Michael Yeargain** » Mon, Sep 03 2007, 10:19AM

I did basicly as Chris did. Once I found the averages I started doing my pricing per Lft. I manipulate the numbers so the Lft came in about the same price as the software.

There are many different methods, maybe one of these suggestions will help you develope your own.

Brian Shannon · Post by **Brian Shannon** » Mon, Sep 03 2007, 12:49PM

I am also trying to figure a quick way to bid a job by L.F.. I am beating myself to death trying to figure the time it takes to cut,build,assemble,sand,deliver,install,etc. a L.F. of cabinetry. I know my monthly costs to keep the doors open and can break that down to an hourly cost but it's so hard to figure time, including everything to apply to 1 L.F. of cabinetry. Lately, I've been doubling my mt'l costs. I know that's not the best way to bid. Also not enough but lately I don't get the job if I ask much more. I think I need to find a basic L.F. cost, then add for drawers,FE's,accessories,etc., maybe add a percentage for more expensive mt'l and doors. This all souldn't be so hard.

Lost

Forrest Chapman · Post by **Forrest Chapman** » Mon, Sep 03 2007, 2:10PM

If you have been in business for a while then you have what you need to price correctly. Take all the jobs that you did well on and break them down into a per foot price. This should be fine for estimating and quite a few people use it as a means to sell a job.

Another way is taking the material and add your markups which will vary from shop to shop. Then add design time. Then add for machining. Then add for assembly (maybe $5 per joint). Then add for finishing (so much per sq. ft.). Then add for installing ($40 to $60 per cab. and fillers). And you can always add premium markups for remodeling or PITA customers or give discounts for good builders.

Brian Shannon · Post by **Brian Shannon** » Mon, Sep 03 2007, 2:32PM

Actually, for years I've been using an OLD DOS version of CV for my quick layouts and bids. Now, I am trying to come up with a quick way to layout and bid with eCabinets and L.F.. because once this old CV program dies, it's gone. As far as putting a figure on joints and per cab for installs, yes I can do time studies but there is still a certain amount of guess work to that also. A couple years ago you could put a little more in there to make sure you are covered. Now we(I) can't get as much $ for cabinets as before so I have to tighten up the bid and also make sure I'm not working for free. I'm just curious how others are dealing with this as it is getting tougher in all regions.

Brian

Michael Yeargain · Post by **Michael Yeargain** » Mon, Sep 03 2007, 6:26PM

Above all Reed Watts,

Location is always an important factor in pricing the jobs. Some higher populated areas bring better than high end jobs. While in other areas, the high end jobs are as good as it gets. Unfortunately.

One of the most advantageous tools Known to me is the presentation that you provide to your customers. With presentation views from e_cabinets, a great attitude and very appealing samples, you should be able to pull more from the jobs. Details like corbels and crown molding, light rails in the job views are very appealing to the customer.

Most customers are sold by a vision, and without that vision they can't buy.

Rick Palechuk · Post by **Rick Palechuk** » Mon, Sep 03 2007, 10:01PM

I would have to agree with Michael on that one. Selling yourself to the client, making them want to deal with you instead of others should be first and foremost on your mind. Also have a plan of how your going to sell your cabs to them. Break down your product into different grades and start pricing with a mid grade, for instance: A bank of drawers, Baltic birch dadoed drawer boxes, Accuride slides being the mid point to start with. Go down to mel boxes white 3/4 slides or up to solid wood boxes ,dovetails with under-mounts. That way you still have the client in your office, hold there interest longer, and have a better chance at selling the job.

Brian Shannon · Post by **Brian Shannon** » Mon, Sep 03 2007, 11:02PM

Yes, I have to agree with that also but I need a good way to present a bid without spending 6-10 hrs on the computer. With the proper presentation, the client is less focussed on the price. I've started using my old DOS program to layout and bid, then eCab rendering maybe one bath Vanity or so just to show the style and look of the cabinetry without rendering the whole job. There'se got to be a happy medium. I want to do it all with eCabinets in a shorter amount of time.

Brian

Michael Yeargain · Post by **Michael Yeargain** » Tue, Sep 04 2007, 5:37AM

Brian,

You need to have a good library of cabinets that you can place without a lot of modifying. For example I may only need to modify 2-3 cabinets in an entire job. I have fillers, panels, bar backs, penninsula walls etc. That I can also modify upon entry if needed.

Normaly I get a set of plans and tell the customer I'll have some designs in a couple of days along with a bid. It takes me about 5 hours with e_cabinets to produce a job (that can be proccessed) including the Bid and line drawings. I also take the time to place counter tops and print a 3D view for the presentation.

I created a dxf file that I can import into my LDE for my title block. And I copy and paste the company and customer information into the LDE. This saves a lot of time.

I would venture to say that the layout and bid from the DOS program is appearantly not going to give you enough time to focus on a presentaiton.

It's usually the small things that keep us from reaching our prospective goals. Taking them out of the equation can only speed up the trip.

Brian Shannon · Post by **Brian Shannon** » Tue, Sep 04 2007, 11:23AM

You're right there Michael, I do need a more extensive library. I only have one of each type of cabinet now. They are setup the way I build cabinets but I do have to do a lot of sizing and tweeking. If I spent the time to create a better library, it would be much faster. Once I figure the right $ amount to put on those seed cabinets, I think that would be the way to go. I like the title block idea. I also want to work on a watermark. I think the reason I'm having such a hard time figuring my labor costs is because of my one and only employee. He is a 60 yr old Italian Craftsman. He is VERY good but S-L-O-W and does things his own way, one at a time. He's too good to get rid of but takes twice as long as it sould. You sould have seen the look on his face when I brought in the Thermwood Router. Oh, now he likes it but at first he would just shake his head. Thanks for all the good ideas and support. Keep them comming. Every little bit helps.

Brian

Michael Yeargain · Post by **Michael Yeargain** » Tue, Sep 04 2007, 2:44PM

Brian,

My directory is extensive. Notice the arrangement of cabinets in groups. In each group I have say 10 of the standard base cabinets, I have the same 10 cabinets with pullouts in another group, and again 10 in a group that is a bank of 3 drawers.

I also have a group of wall cabinets, tall cabinets, and others like fillers and end panels in other groups.

I labeled mine according to material thickness. like \"2332 Base\" for 23/32\" standard base cabinets. Standard base cabinets will have a shelf/ drawer and door/s.

If I design a set in 23/32\" birch and have a need to change material I end up having to take the cabinet to the editor anyway. If I change the materials from the layout area, the doors and drawer fronts sometimes get funky and give me wrong sizes and sometimes the tops don't change.

Hope the ideas help.

Brian Shannon · Post by **Brian Shannon** » Wed, Sep 05 2007, 1:35PM

Thanks Michael,

I can see how a large library like yours would really help speed up design and costing. I would still have to design my cabinets for machining because I build them up to 10' long, not modular, but at that point I would have the contract so the time is justified. I think I need to take an hour a night and design a whole new library. I can see that I will need 100-200 cabinets to make it work. Thanks again. It's always good to see how others are doing it.

Brian

Michael Yeargain · Post by **Michael Yeargain** » Wed, Sep 05 2007, 8:17PM

Brian,

What type cabinets do you build? Frame or frameless?

Brian Shannon · Post by **Brian Shannon** » Thu, Sep 06 2007, 6:45PM

98 percent faceframe.