Constraints - Reducing Design Time

Chris Robinson · Post by **Chris Robinson** » Sat, Sep 29 2007, 11:14AM

Hi Everyone,

I appreciate the effort that Thermwood has put into this software. I don't want to sound ungrateful either. But as I look at our process, from design through installation, design times stand out as a big bottleneck. And that constraint falls squarely on my head. Our market has tightened up considerably and we need to cut the fat to remain profitable. This demands that we make an attempt to elevate this constraint.

The customer expects a nice, accurate photo realistic representation of their project. Contractors expect accurate drawings.

I am averaging >5 hours to complete a design for one kitchen. Three of my last jobs took over 6 hours each after all was said and done. That's taking either a blueprint or field measurement and creating the room. I'm not wasting time with minute details. That time doesn't include time to prepare the file for the cnc either.

If a customer is sitting with me, reviewing the design and says, \"Ok, now that I see that color, I want Maple instead of Oak, and can we change the crown to the tall crown with rope.\" I say, sure, I'll get back to you in a day or two. You can forget about trying to make the changes with them sitting there. They get impatient and I don't blame them. I get remarks like, \"You need that software that Lowes uses! They designed the same job in 30 minutes.\" (I can argue about the big box retailer's expertise in such matters but they have a valid point regarding design layout times.)

Sure, you can globally change sheetgoods. I don't have alot of faith in the feature because it creates errors in my twd file. You can globally change all base or wall cabinet doors but it is slow. You have to modify each cabinet's molding, individually. I can't associate parts like leg levelers, to cabinets. The countertop function is slow and requires alot of workarounds to be accurate. The LDE is tedious at best.

The design time is eating away my profits. With the competition and market conditions in my area, I can't charge for designs.

What is your tips and tricks in reducing your design times? Right now, I'm considering going back to another design package for drawings/renderings and using eCabs to batch cabs for the cnc. The same job in C*%#!&$are would have taken an hour to get a rendered picture and drawings for the contractor.

My post isn't meant to inflame anyone or to flame Thermwood. But it stands to reason that if you guys and girls are getting designs done in 1 hour, then I'm doing something very wrong. If you want, we can break it down by area: Countertops, library setup, LDE, Moldings etc.

Thanks,
Chris Robinson

Gene Davis · Post by **Gene Davis** » Sat, Sep 29 2007, 11:39AM

From my limited time working with this software, Chris, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

One is far better off using a second package to develop room and installation designs, then simply using eCabs to batch the job for cutting and buying.

You simply cannot expect a package like eCabs, with all of its capabilities for custom cab design, and its integration with CNC, to be a strong performer when it comes to room design and rendering, especially with a client sitting at the table with you.

They are absolutely right about what they can get at Lowe's or Home Depot, in terms of . . . what if we want all-white? . . . what if we want the three-piece crown? . . . and all the other what-ifs.

If that is a gotta-have in your market, you'll just simply need to pony up for one of the expensive cab packages like 20-20. With a package like that, and libraries from a few of the better majors with deep product offerings, you can show them what they want to see. Who cares if they are seeing stock sizings with big fillers? Most clients don't understand the details, and just want to see the overall look. Your job when done using eCabs will look more refined, but your 20-20 glitzy pics can sell the job.

For me, not needing to do photoreals for clients, nor having them meet with me to review things and put myself in the position you find yourself in, Google Sketchup works just fine. I can rapidly develop a total cab plan for a room, and size all the units for input to eCabs as a batch, quite efficiently.

Derrick Monson · Post by **Derrick Monson** » Sat, Sep 29 2007, 2:17PM

I agree to a point.

I attribute my lack of design speed to a disorganized library. I don't feel as though I have invested the appropriate time to create an easy to use, organized library. I think going through a training seminar would have helped.

I use 20/20 for the factory lines I sell and cuss quite a bit while using it; very glitchy. The main, and only features I like about 20/20 over ecab are those in the cabinet placement process.

1. Active dimensions as objects are placed on walls.
2. Object snap that can be disabled.
3. Easy to globally change door styles and colors.
4. Cabinets are placed in a mode that more represents a drafting-like mode. (outlines of the cabinets)

With that said, it sounds like Thermwood will be changing the custom layout feature pretty soon.

Michael Yeargain · Post by **Michael Yeargain** » Sat, Sep 29 2007, 4:43PM

As a former C@#$% user myself, I can understand the pain endured with the time constraints while designing a set of cabinets. (color change, Molding changes etc). I can regularly design a set of high-end cabinets to include wet bars, 3 baths, entertainment centers along with laundry rooms in about 6 hours. Typically $30K sets.

While there are many workarounds within the members there is rarely a mention of them in the forum as an organized format. This has been addressed.

Also, there are ways to simplify the process by refining your directories. This area needs critical attention in order to speed up the process.

All these can be improved and need the input from us as end users. This helps the programmers to develop areas that need attention. One area that has been addressed is the cabinet directories. I personally have made the suggestion to incorporate a hierarchy menu in the cabinet directory. This would give each user the ability to select a directory based on species, construction methods, as well as counter-top thickness. We all know how the granite will differ from laminate as well as solid surface.

In an attempt to help my own development into the speed of things I have developed a cabinet directory made from plywood that is paint grade and one stain grade. I do a cabinet restore for the paint grade and return the restore with stain grade if I need to select from stain.

This may sound difficult but here is how this works. First of all do a back up of your files without the cabinets and/or assemblies. Then do another backup of just the cabinet directory alone. And label this backup according to the species and construction. You can label it say \"3_4BirchButtSG_Solid-Surface\" When you do a restore from this directory you will bring in the directory you need to select from. Now develop a directory \"3_4BirchButtPG_Solid-Surface\" this will give you another directory when you restore the cabinets under that name.

This is a bit tedious but nonetheless it works.

The programmers could create an import directory function in lieu of the hierarchy menu. This would satisfy me as well but I would prefer the hierarchy.

Let's keep up the great suggestions and keep helping each other with their problems related to the issues that we come across. This software is actually the best in my opinion. But, it (like every other system) can use improvement.

e_cabinet Systems is the greatest. And let us encourage the Thermwood team with our support.

Post by **Jason Susnjara** » Mon, Oct 01 2007, 1:02PM

Hi Members,

I just wanted to let you know, that our main objective now is to simplify the software. One area is the custom room layout area that was mentioned earlier. The programmers gave us a quick demo on it last week and it is impressive. Placing cabinets will still be the same with a few exceptions but this is just the beginning. There are a lot of different areas that we plan on simplifying like cutlists, associations, line drawings, etc...

thanks,

Michael Yeargain · Post by **Michael Yeargain** » Mon, Oct 01 2007, 2:20PM

Jason,

First of all thank you for the quick update,

I know you will have to send us an e_mail bomb if you tell us the secrets but, I'm going to ask anyway.

What kind of differences are there in the custom layout.

And any clue as to when it will be available.

Post by **Jason Susnjara** » Tue, Oct 02 2007, 8:01AM

Hi Michael,

I will only give you a couple of changes as the others might be hard to explain. The wall editor and room layout is all in the same page with toolbars on top. Cabinets, appliances, etc... are not rendered but allowing the user to define colors such as blue, red, green, etc... Information is readily available throughout this area. Again, once we release V5.2, there will still be some items in the room layout area that will be simplifyed even more after the release. The release for V5.2 is still open. If I remember correctly, it should be released before the end of the year.

Chris Robinson · Post by **Chris Robinson** » Tue, Oct 02 2007, 8:16AM

Well, I had typed up a nice reply yesterday afternoon. I had to step away from the computer and like a stooge, came back and closed IE!

So, I'm condensing. I agree with Michael that allowing an heirarchy format within the libraries would help streamline and organize that area.

I also think that for those whom build frameless, having the option to match door/df exterior color would be a great time saver.

Jason, the new room layout mods sound great!

Moldings, being able to specify any miter angle would be beneficial.

Thermwood 5pc & MDF Doors - Being able to specify mid-rails and mid-stiles is critical. We do lots of peninsula backs, tall refrig. panels etc. that require them.

Thanks,

Chris