Aesthetics in Cabinet Making

[Kerry Fullington]

This is a continuation of This Thread without further interrupting the original post.


Peter,

You wrote

Dale,
Kerry is right about the moulding. However, I apply a trim board across the joint instead of in it. This conceals any mis-alignments caused by floors or walls as the cabs are joined together. Either way, it is an opportunity to add some architectural elements to make the assembly more interesting to look at.
Merry Christmas to all!
regards,

I opt for the method I have shown in the original thread because it allows me to change depth of the cabinets. I would actually inset the middle cabinets at least two inches so that they look like they are sitting on top of the base. Then I bump the upper cabinets out a little to add interest there. I dislike the wall of doors look. This seems to help some.


Gene,

You wrote:

I'll be installing a kitchen next week with two two-stacks and one three-stack, no intermediate moldings, 3mm margins everywhere.

Details similar to what the original poster showed. I'll post some photos of assembly details, plus some of the finished elevations.

Your 3mm margins are the thing I am trying to eliminate. That is my main reason for disliking frameless construction. There is no division between the elements. You need space between doors and drawers. There needs to be elements that stand proud and some that sit shy as well as moldings to create shadows and depth to create interest.
How someone builds their boxes is the least important part of a cabinets beauty. The picture you posted in the original thread of the Neff cabinets is a prime example of this. The beauty of those cabinets came from the trim and decoration. The fluted columns, the bump ins and outs, the stacked crown, the corbels and capitals and how the designer put it together, not the frameless boxes. The same goes for framed boxes. It is what you do on top of the box that counts.
My adding moldings and depth changes to the cabinets in the original post (whether they were built frameless or framed) was just an attempt to add beauty (maybe only in my eyes) to the job. It was not an endorsement or criticism of a particular building style. I would also add pilasters of some kind between certain columns of cabinets in the original posters job for the same reason. It breaks up the wall of doors and adds interest.

Kerry

[Gene Davis]

Thanks for beginning this thread, Kerry. Now we can differ in opinions to our hearts' content.

To embellish, with moldings, depth change, and other decorative features is the choice of the client, not us. The beauty is in the eye of the one writing the check.

Your own preference might be for more, mine happens to be less.

Here is the look I will be doing next week, but all in CVG douglas fir. This is from Chad Reitan's gallery pages on Woodweb.

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[Gene Davis]

Notice in this pic, that the large L-bumpout filler with integral leg, is used to make the depth change transition.

Otherwise, cabs are frameless, with no intermediate moldings.

web-Sycamore-Wallace-Kitchen-010.jpg (133.57 KiB) Viewed 9096 times

Intermediate spacers, and one across the bottom, can give some detail to a frameless run, as shown in this Sketchup piece. I've not shown an end treatment.

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And again, in a version from our friends at Crown Point Cabinetry, over in New Hampshire, I believe.

Frameless.jpg (64.22 KiB) Viewed 9083 times

[Damon Nabors]

I personally agree with Kerry as far as cabinetry having to be Aesthetically pleasing to the eye. I build everything with Face Frames, I have although, considered building some frameless,for no reason other than getting the price more competitive. Price and productivity are the only reasons I could imagine anyone building frameless. I have seen some nice looking frameless cabinets, but there is so much more you can do with a framed cabinet when it comes to custom work. I am not getting cought up in the battle between Frame-VS-Framless because I don't thing anyone with sway thier opinions. I think you have to look at each job for what it is, and the profit margins that are allowed. You have to build within the budget and time frame of each job.

I guess if all you where doing is basic looking cabinetry and nothing else, someone could get buy with that method. Like I said I too have considered frameless, but only because of the time and cost savings.

Gene tell me how you would have designed this cabinet going frameless, I had to build these book cases and they stood just over 16' tall. I still have alittle more work to do in this picture ( finish one more door and put the beveled glass in the doors).

[Joe Dusel]

I also use frameless cabinets where ever I can, and I personally like the look. Frameless has typically a more contemporary look, even when trimmed out. That's why you see so many of the faceframe cabinets made to have a full overlay that looks frameless, but without the functionality.

Sometimes you have to use faceframes, particularly on open cabinets like bookcases and such, or when you are going for a certain look. Many times my assemblies are combinations of both framed and frameless cabinets, that way I get the look of the faceframe where I think it's needed and the functionality of the frameless where I can use it. My customers have no problems with the use of both types.

European hardware really does work much better in the frameless cabinets. Items like hinges and slides are much more difficult to doink around with when you are using faceframes.

I think that all of the jobs you guys posted here look great, whether framed or not. (I just don't like those cheesy Ketchup drawings. )

Joe

[Joseph Fusco]

I've been making cabinets for a long time just as most of you. I started making frame less in the early 90's and like Joe, I try and make that type whenever possible. Cabinets should be pleasing to the eye all the time --- No ? Trouble is everyone's eye is a bit different. . .

[DaleKern]

It is my belief, and Kerry correct me if I'm wrong, that the intent of his suggestion for a moulding between boxes has more to do with turning negatives into positives. If you have a seam between cabinets why not turn that (a negative) into a architectural detail (positive) and solve the alignment issue in the process. That is why my comment was to agree with Kerry's suggestion and add his method to my pallet of options. Granted, beauty is in the eye of the beholder - or person paying the bill - but when my customers are given the choice between common frameless and something spiced up, they go for the spice. That is what separates me from my competitors: The ability to give a little more for their money. They can go to a hundred cabinet shops that say "this is the standard frameless cabinet, the only way we do it..." and they really don't appreciate it (sounds like the big box stores..). I'll build whatever they want frameless, faceframe overlay or inset beaded - whatever. I try never to say no. This business is all about turning negatives into positives.

In my original answer to Kerry I was purposely sarcastic about being open minded. Even if all you do is frameless cabinets you SHOULD be able to appreciate Kerry's suggestion. And if you don't appreciate it just move on to another thread.


Dale

[Michael S Murray]

Hi Guys,
I was going to chime in on this earlier, but did not have time, then Joe Dusel said exactly what I would have said,maybe no one will notice......except Joes last line was funnier than mine would have been.

I also use frameless cabinets where ever I can, and I personally like the look. Frameless has typically a more contemporary look, even when trimmed out. That's why you see so many of the faceframe cabinets made to have a full overlay that looks frameless, but without the functionality.

Sometimes you have to use faceframes, particularly on open cabinets like bookcases and such, or when you are going for a certain look. Many times my assemblies are combinations of both framed and frameless cabinets, that way I get the look of the faceframe where I think it's needed and the functionality of the frameless where I can use it. My customers have no problems with the use of both types.

European hardware really does work much better in the frameless cabinets. Items like hinges and slides are much more difficult to doink around with when you are using faceframes.

I think that all of the jobs you guys posted here look great, whether framed or not. (I just don't like those cheesy Ketchup drawings. )

[DanEpps]

Beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder and payment is in the checkbook of the purchaser. That being said, it is always in the designer's best interest to find out what the purchaser's perspective of beauty is (and what their budget is) and show them options that are within the limits of budget and their perceived scope of beauty.

Many times, however, a prospective customer may think they know exactly what they want but see another design that really "knocks their socks off." For this reason alone one should not limit themselves to a single design method. If you build only frameless and a customer wants face frames, what do you do...tell them you don't do that? Of course not--you make sample designs with and without face frames and let the customer decide. Either method can be made to acheive a certain "look" and that, after all, is what the customer is really after.

In my opinion, the point Kerry is trying to make is that there is no right or wrong way. Your market dictates what sells and that is a "look" more than a particular construction method. Whatever style is in fashion today will be replaced by another style in a few years and those who remain flexible will have greater success than those who stay true to a particular style.

Note that I said "style" and not "construction method." Most styles of cabinetry can be executed equally well in frameless or with face frames and in the end all that counts is that the customer is happy and you get paid. If you do it well (framed or frameless) they'll be back in a few years for the latest style to replace their "old, tired cabinets."

[Gene Davis]

Cheesy is in the eye of the beholder, also.

I've probably spent fifty times the hours with Ketchup as compared with that I've spent with eCabs, and I have settled into a comfortable groove, doing proposal renderings with one cost effective package (Google) and then doing the actual buy and then build using eCabs. To each his own, I guess.

So I use one for the sale, and the other for the actual do. I'll once again quote Miles Davis, it's his response to the reporter's question about whether he was still smoking dope, "Wuz wrong wid dat?"

Kerry has probably spent fifty times the hours with eCabs versus my Ketchup time, and his renderings show that. But I simply have not been happy, with my limited experience, with what I am able to get with eCabs renderings.

Here's one dressed up a little with wallcab height changes, and some crown. Pretty basic, otherwise, but the client can see what the proposed job will look like. In my area, there is no competition at all that is using any finer renderings than this. Please don't move here, Kerry!

20070618-173404-2.jpg (37.16 KiB) Viewed 8829 times

[Joe Dusel]

Sorry Gene. I was just razzing you. You do nice work with the Sketchup and the actual cabinets.

Not many of us can make eCabs sing and dance like Kerry does.

Joe

[DanEpps]

...Not many of us can make eCabs sing and dance like Kerry does...

Not many? Name one.

You hit a key point Gene...the amount of time invested in honing one's skills in any software product, craft or anything else for that matter, pays dividends in the end. Kerry indeed has a lot of "stick time" creating stunning 3D presentations with eCabinets and makes all of us envious. My renderings look like something done by a 5 year-old in comparison.

Another key point you touched on is competition in your market area. That, more than anything else, is the driving force behind whether you use one tool or another for sales presentations. If other shops in your area are producing nothing more than line drawings (or even hand-drawn sketches ), any color rendering will be superior. Once the competition catches on though, you have to kick it up a notch to stay ahead. Of course you are already ahead by using eCabinets for design and creation of the CNC file so your competition has a long way to go if they want to catch you.

I'm with Joe, you do good stuff with SketchUp. I tried it out and can't do a thing with it. Just as eCabinets is very tedious to you, SketchUp is very tedious to me. Why? Like you with eCabinets presentations, it is outside my comfort zone.

[Peter Walsh]

Damon,
I'm a little late to your posting (Christmas and all) but I didn't want it to go by without complimenting you on that fine library design. That's going to look totally great ,and you're right......very hard to match this in frameless.
regards,

[Damon Nabors]

Thanks Peter, I am not knocking frameless. As I have said before I am considering frameless from a cost standpoint on my kitchens. I have some contractors in my area that like my work but can't affort the price. The only way I see that I could get more competitive would be to go frameless. I have never built a frameless kitchen, so I have some studying to do. As Dan mentioned earlier, you have to be flexable and have the ability to offer which ever style is needed to get the job. I know that I burn up alot of hours Milling, and sanding faceframe material. Just like the sheet goods we are getting today, the lumber is about as bad. I have tried several different suppliers and I get warped, twisted, and bowed lumber. And about the time you think you have it straight and run it down the table saw, it springs back again.

Taking all that into consideration, I can see that coming straight off the saw or router with your sheet goods and to the edge bander would be nice.

What I need is for someone to let me come visit for a day or two and get the ins and outs of building frameless.

I had a contractor contact me the other day about 4 houses he needed done and had a budget of 4% to do the cabinetry. This come out to about 4K per house on these smaller homes. I do not see how I can do them at that price building with faceframes. We have a couple of manufacturers in our area that are pumping out particle board thermofoil cabinets at a rediculous price. The manufacturers are makeing the local smaller cabinet shops lower thier price to compete and you just have a negative effect on the entire market.

[Michael S Murray]

Damon,
One common misunderstanidng is that the material costs are less to build a frameless cabinet,dont make that mistake. The only way that can be true is if you use a cheaper material. But, a quality frameless cabinet vs a quality framed cabinet material wise is about the same. You will save time on the face frames, but by no means drop your pricing. The only reason you can now build a quality frameless cabinet is because of your router and hopefully you have a high quality bander to go with it, dont give that away as I doubt your machinery was given to you. Dont be fooled by a lot of the things you hear about face frame vs framed, they both have their places, I prefer frameless when appropriate but will build framed if I need to.The real reason a lot of guys dont build frameless is it takes a different set of machinery that most dont have and dont want to invest in.You cant build high quality frameless with a table saw and and a hand iron.I am currently building a new kitchen for my own home and will have both framed and frameless in the same kitchen.Also,dont try to compete with the cheap guys, its a dead end road.walk away from the 4k per house jobs unless you just need the practice. Most builders only want cheap and are always looking for the next guy to not pay. I had one call me the other day (president of the local builders assosciation) outright said he was looking for something better than his standard HOMECREST cabinetry, but was hoping to beat there price also. I wont tell you what I said to him on this forum, other than I laughed right in his face when he also told me he wanted to start putting Corian in his baths but could not afford to pay any more than he was currently paying for his coultered marble tops.Basically told him not to bother me any more with his ignorant wish lists....... Good Luck to every one, hope every one had a nice holiday and will have a safe new yrs. We will be having our Christmas tonight as my grandaughter spent the last 5 days in Rileys children hospital and grandpa spent them in a very uncomfortable chair beside her, shes home now and were going to PARTY!!!