Frame flush to inside

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Forrest Chapman
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Frame flush to inside

Postby Forrest Chapman » Sat, Jan 19 2008, 11:56AM

Hello Everyone,

I'd like to see the option of selecting certain frame parts and choosing "flush to inside". This will help on cabinets that are of a hybrid type and when selecting a case material of different thickness you will not have to go back and change your negative inset on the frame part.

Thanks,
Forrest

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Damon Nabors
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Re: Frame flush to inside

Postby Damon Nabors » Sat, Jan 19 2008, 1:44PM

Forrest, That would be a nice improvement. What I have done, is create a different library for the different thickness material. Depending on the job, I may use 3/4 or 1/2 inch material. I have cabinets saved with 3/4 material and then I have cabinets saved with 1/2 inch material. Its a PITA to set up the different libraries at first, but after it's done, no problem.

I wounder if they could program some kind of constraint manager to adjust the insets accordingly to the material thickness?
Damon Nabors

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Re: Frame flush to inside

Postby Jon Dieterlen » Sat, Jan 19 2008, 8:42PM

I was wondering what issues you run into when placing the side panels flush w/the inside of the face frame stile. I have always flushed the outside and blocked in for mounting drawer slides. I do not like rear mounting sockets. I feel they are cheap and will fall off/break over time. On non exposed sides the FF actually projects 1/32 past the plywood box because I factor the 3/4 ply as a full 3/4 thick even though it is actually 23/32. This leaves a 1/16" gap between side panels in the run. This usually enough to compensate for wavy walls. Flushing the inside would solve a lot of problems w/drawers, roll outs , and hinges. I guess you could double up on any partitions...a little wasteful however. One problem I see is when using an applied end. I use 1 3/4" stiles and put a 3/4" outside scribe to accept the applied end. That would leave 1/4" between the interior panel and the applied end. A little awkward. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Jon

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Damon Nabors
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Re: Frame flush to inside

Postby Damon Nabors » Sat, Jan 19 2008, 11:13PM

I flush my sides with the inside of the style most of the time so I can mount my slide to the cabinet side. Normally you will only have to deal with an end panel on the end of a run of cabinets. I use 2" styles and 3/4 sides. I use 1/2" plywood filler strips to shim out the end panel. With this method, everything flushes out nice. Yes you have a little waste with two sides, but the labor savings more than offsets the cost.
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Re: Frame flush to inside

Postby Michael Rice » Sun, Jan 20 2008, 7:02AM

Jon
Flushing partitions to the inside edge of FF will not work if you are doing inset and using blum back mount hinge plate as you need a minimum of 5/8 of exposed FF to mount the hinge plate. If the cabinet is a drawer stack, no problem.
Mike
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Re: Frame flush to inside

Postby Rick Palechuk » Sun, Jan 20 2008, 3:23PM

A standard hinge plate and full inset hinge can be used then.

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Re: Frame flush to inside

Postby David Hall » Mon, Jan 21 2008, 7:09PM

I'd like to suggest taking it one step further. Well... perhaps more than one step.

There are many times when the size (width, length, and material thickness) of one part determines the position, inset, offset, scribe, etc used in construction settings and other places in the program. Instead of only being able to specify a constant dimension, It would be very powerful if we could specify an expression with variable dimension.

For example: The outside scribe necessary to make a stile align with the inside of the cabinet might be expressed as "right stile width-right end material thickness"
A 4" fixed shelf used as a stretcher might have it's back inset defined as "right end width - back material thickness - 4" (allowing stretchers to to define openings into which doors and drawers can be placed would eliminate the need for this)
The number of holes up and down for an adjustable shelf might be expressed as: "round to whole number((right end length-(2*deck material thickness)-toe kick height-10)/1.25)/2)) to give your enough 32 mm spaced holes to stop about 5 inches from the top and bottom of the cabinet.
A back's bottom inset might be expressed as "toe kick height" for base cabinets.
It would be helpful for specifiying stretcher positioning too.

If this were implemented by immediately converting the result of the expression to constant and saving the constant, the feature would be next to useless. The expression must be saved and re-evaluated during each rebuild of the cabinet. (Including the material thickness change on CNC output) It would also be dissapointing if the expression could not be edited. (like the constraint manager expressions can not be edited)

The error handling for circular references might be quite a task.

Regards,
Dave
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Re: Frame flush to inside

Postby Mike Snodgrass » Sun, Jan 27 2008, 11:30AM

About half the jobs we get are inset jobs.
We have been flushing our ends and partitions for quite some time. It does take more material and they can get pretty heavy. However, it seemed like a waste not to be able to use the hardware holes for our slides and mounting plates in lieu of a bunch of blocking.
On the end panel, we currently use a -.75" inset on the front so we can put a lock miter on the corner with the face frame.

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Brian Shannon
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Re: Frame flush to inside

Postby Brian Shannon » Sun, Jan 27 2008, 12:38PM

I do as Mike S does. I hate that faceframe inset plate so I flush to the inside and use an inset hinge and plate. I setup a hole pattern for a spacer blocks to use for drawer slides. I don't use a lock miter on the finished ends but that's a great idea. Do you do it on the CNC or manually?


Brian

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Re: Frame flush to inside

Postby Mike Snodgrass » Sun, Jan 27 2008, 12:42PM

We keep a router table set up with that bit on it.
Thinking about using a shaper though. It is a rather HOG of a bit.

Forrest Chapman
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Re: Frame flush to inside

Postby Forrest Chapman » Sun, Jan 27 2008, 12:58PM

Hello Everyone,

Although I build 95% frameless for my own jobs many of my parts or unfinished cabinet customers prefer a faceframe cabinet. So a few years ago I developed an hybrid style for them for obvious reasons and they have had great success with it. However I've always struggled with the material differences and amount of inset on selected parts and have fought against building so many libraries to account for this. This one function seems elegant enough to me. I just wondered how many others would benifit from this.

I also do my finished end the same way.

Forrest

Forrest Chapman
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Re: Frame flush to inside

Postby Forrest Chapman » Thu, Jan 31 2008, 6:00PM

Hi Everyone,

The programmers are interested in this function but need a little prompting from you. If you think you can benefit from this and it is easy enough to impliment they will do it sooner rather than later. If you haven't thought about making your cabinets this way post your questions here and we will be glad to explain the benefits.

Thanks,
Forrest

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Re: Frame flush to inside

Postby Michael S Murray » Thu, Jan 31 2008, 6:42PM

I definetly would be interested in seeing this impleminted, I also use this method when I am FORCED to build face frames.I also have at least one or two face frames in every frameless kitchen also. I also cut for several face frame shops and this would be a nice deal for them also. Lets not forget part editor cuts on drawers though. :D
Mike Murray
Versatile Cabinet & Solid Surface
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Steve Dyches
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Re: Frame flush to inside

Postby Steve Dyches » Thu, Jan 31 2008, 7:38PM

Count me in. We build most of our cabinets this way and this feature would make my life much easier.

steve
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Steve Dyches
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Re: Frame flush to inside

Postby Jon Forsgren » Fri, Feb 01 2008, 1:06PM

I normally build with face frames and would really like to be able to lay out my face frame openings and be able to have the PARTITIONS offset relative to the face frame rather than visa-versa. That way if I reconfigure the opening I can move the partions where ever I want without having to bounce between editors and math out the rail float. I guess what I am saying is I would like to have a "partition float" box like the "rail float". Did I make sense? Or is the ability already there and I had my usual senior moment(s)? (I rolled over to 56 today :D )

Thanks, Jon


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