switching to 32mm

[mikesand]

Hello everyone,

I have been using Ecabs and production shareing for 2 years now. I have been building using face frames and traditional full dado construction. I have decided to add another line of cabinets based on the 32mm frameless system. These cabinets will have dowel/confirmat joinery and will be standardised to have ballanced panels for simple setup of construction/line boring machines.

In Ecabs all the hardware hole boreing is relative to the drawer height and position, with the 32mm system the boring pattern dictates the door/drawer heights and placements. I can reverse engineer the layout to find the drawer heights that work with the 32mm system, but there are a lot of chances for errors in doing that. Also I would have to make a separate library of cabinets for each hardware profile (bottom mounts, concealed slides, etc.).

Are any of you using Ecabs in a standardised 32mm production process? Do you have any comments or sujestions?


Thanks for you time,
Mike

[Gene Davis]

Just my opinion, and I am sure others will argue with me, but with eCabs and a router, the 32mm gospel doesn't make any sense at all for your vertical dimensions, or drawer and door placement.

It mostly relates back to the days of line-drilled sides looking as if a well-disciplined woodpecker went at them.

I don't want my first line of shelf holes 37mm back from the front, nor do I want any more extra shelf pin holes than two up and two down. Furthermore, I want my hinge plate holes looking at me like two little eyes, rather than have to remember "was it holes 12 and 13, or was it holes 13 and 14?"

Also, please, give me three fixing holes for my Blum Tandem slides, not just one forward and one back.

The one thing the True32 boys do that I adhere to is to stick with 1.5mm door/cab side reveals, zero at all bottoms, and for uppers and anything that is to stack, 3mm at the top. Then there is 3mm between all pairs, and for sure, all hinge placements on doors are balanced.

But why do all the gyrations in math, partition setting, etc., just so your holes fall on those 32mm increments? The CNC router certainly doesn't care.

But hey, maybe your backup is a 23-spindle Ritter line drill. Then, it may make sense. Otherwise, not.

But that's just my opinion. BTW, I'm not a cutter. I buy my parts production-share.

[Glenn Van Reason]

dejavu....should we lock this thread now? lol

Seriously though, Gene is right, if your getting your components CNC'd then system32 is really not relevant.

[Forrest Chapman]

No Gene, your totally wrong. I'm not going to argue with you at all.

Mike if you cnc your parts you'll want to rethink the full line bore thing.

Forrest

[Gregory Hairston]

While I agree it is true if you are using a CNC that the methods used in systems like true 32 are not necessary I would argue that standardization makes life easier. I am not a True32 guy but I have been studying their system and what it does for you is standardize shop procedures and makes it easy for anyone that is trained in the system to quickly adapt. You can teach someone with a relatively low level of knowledge how to do the job and not worry about them trying to figure out too much on their own. They know where to place the hardware, how to attach the hinges, and how to bore doors and attach drawers and fronts. Yes the CNC can be used to standardize your own system but why reinvent the wheel. I do not have a CNC but if I did I would not bore a full row of hole but I do believe I would stay in system. That would mean my holes would be spaced at 32mm increments and I would use the hardware how it was designed to be used.

Just my 2 cents.

[Dean Fehribach]

You might want to consider purchasing the "System 32 compatible" design sharing library. And give that a look-see. The designer has a Thermwood router and has fully tested it.

http://www.woodworkerswholesale.com/Fra ... 9303-1.htm

[Jason Susnjara]

Hi Mike,

I am not going to tell you which is better because they both have their place. One thing to keep in mind though is extra operations. If cutting on a cnc machine, and you are using dowel construction, that will require another setup whether it is on the machine, one panel at a time or using a dedicated machine for that purpose. I would like to think that most cabinetmakers would like to put a sheet on the machine, have the machine cut the dado's, drill the holes, and cut outlines. Then take the parts off and start assembling or edgebanding without having to worry about secondary machine operations. We built the furniture here for our new offices and they are all frameless construction. We used blind dado and only drilled the holes for the hinges, slides, and adj. shelf holes. Confirmats seem to work good as we usually construct cabinets at shows with them. Using blind dado construction, you can change the settings to allow the cabinet to only go together one way. All in all, I believe that this is a preference. If you are still undecided, try designing a set of 32mm cabinets and manufacture them to see what you like.

[mikesand]

Hello every one,

Thanks for all your help and comments. I value your opinions. It is true that if a medium volume shop is to rely on nested based production using a CNC machine the 32 mm system becomes irrelevant. However I have solid reasons for switching. This is not a whim decision, nor have I been seduced into the 32mm dark side.

I would like to hear how any users of Ecabs have gotten around the problems using ballanced cabinet sides in relation to the drawer/door sizing. Thee main issue is referencing from the inside opening (frameless) as Ecabs does vs referencing from the panel edges for boring machines.

Thank you all,
Mike

[Gene Davis]

Mike, I cannot comment on probs or no probs using balanced cab R and L ends when doing doors and drawers, but I am curious about balanced ends, and need to ask a few Qs.

Other than getting a L end that can interchange with a R, what else is gained?

Is a balanced end design possible in basecabs that have L/R stretchers to define door/drawer openings?

Are balanced doors a part of your strategy, and if so, how do you square that with any possible need for unequal reveals, top versus bottom?

Please, I am not criticizing balanced ends or your desire to have them, but am only trying to understand the system.

[Joe Dusel]

Hi Mike,

I also agree with Gene about the CNC boring. If you are not going to use the CNC please let us know which "system" you are planning to use - True32, Blum Process32, Grass Kiss II, or what? Then we might be able to help a bit more.

By the way, doing confirmat holes and dowel holes on the construction boring machine can be a pain in the butski. Have you tried this yet? I just use the construction boring machine to drill 5mm through holes on the tops and bottoms of the sides and finish off the holes with a Zentrix when assembling. More and more I see that outsourcing to a CNC shop is much more cost effective for me.

Take care,

Joe

[mikesand]

Thanks everyone ,

I am manually cutting out and boreing these cabinets to speed production and offer a lower line of cabinets. I will still take advantage of production shareing for more custom work.

Gene, the reason for ballanced side panels is so that I can use one set up on the boring machines for either side. However you bring up a good point about the front stretchers. I was not planning on line drilling the panels, just the holes necessarry. But now that you bring that up I suppose that I will need line drill if I am to keep the set up the same.

Joe (and Gene), the system that I am looking at right now is the Kiss II. I like the reveals it produces and that it seems to require the least setups. I have used Blum products since day one so I am interested in their system as well. I need to contact my rep for the program (software) they provide.

Joe I have not used a construction boring machine. I have seen references to the lighter machines that rely on fence stops giving inconsistant results. I am looking at the bigger machines that have the full, fingered type fence at the back. What were the problems that you had and what kind of machines have you used? Your experience will jelp me a lot.

Thanks again,

Mike

[Karin Sasse]

Hi

I use the Hafele Cabinets the Sides are drilled for all the Holes and there not sided, we use the 2 pin adjustable leg bases. The cabinets are put together with Dowell
and confirmat screws. I design my kitchens to use their standard cabinet sizes, the cabinets I do change to make my kitchen fit is the Drawer Cabinets. I use blum Tandembox only , We use Blum Dynalog which is free to determan my Hole position and use their Jig to drill my holes in the Drawer cabinet, if I need a 680 mm cabinet
I by a 700mm and cut it down deck and 2 Toprail and the back, then make my Drawer Bottoms and Backs for the tandembox. I use ecabs for all my designs and my libary is exactly like the cabinets I by from Hafele. I do not have Doors attached , I place my cabinets and then add Doors and Drawers and benchtops. the 3 off us make and install 3kitchens a week this way. we make our Timber Doors but buy painted and Vinyl Doors. I would like to own a Router but can't see how we could do any more with one.

Thanks Fred

[mikesand]

Thanks Fred,

How did you set the parameter for adding drawers in Ecabs so the drawers will come out the correct height and the hardware alligns with the boring pattern?

Do you use 4 legs or 2 per cabinet?

Thank for your help,

Mike

[Gene Davis]

Mike, I tried this just for grins, when I was getting started in eCabs. I downloaded the Blum system specs, set my dimensioning prefs to metric, and just started blazing away.

Basically, I figured with pencil, paper, and calculator, where all my drawer partitions were to go, and used eCabs to place them there.

Since eCabs then uses the openings determined by cab front height, and partition locations, you need to be using the calculator to carefully set your hardware holes so they both work for your hardware (re: drawerbox bottom clearance and distance up from box bottom to slide holes) and fall into your 32mm matrix.

I don't know how a thing like a Ritter 23-spindle boring machine works, but I am presuming it is set with its spindles at a constant 32mm spacing, but that you can choose which spindles will actually bore holes (i.e., let's bore with numbers 3, 17, and 22).

So, I would presume it is work like that one would have to do to set up a series of basecab seeds, and wallcab seeds, also.

For basecabs, I went ahead (since the Blum specs had all the details) and did bases at "standard" counter height, then the two different choices for "vanity" height, and also the low one for "desk" height.

With these all in the seed library, one would never resize for height, in detailing a room or building a batch.

In going into wallcabs things get different. Since you want unhanded carcase sides (which I presume you do) you will have to do seeds for cabs with one, then two, then three, adjustable shelves, and carefully place shelves so that the shelf hole arrays (I also presume you want shelf holes with just a couple more up and down holes per) are symmetrical about the horizontal beltline of the sides.

For your wallcab doors, you'll need to make the choice between either balanced doors, or balanced top and bottom door reveals. Unless I am wrong in my math, I don't believe you can have a mix in this.

With wallcab seeds thus set up, you should be able to resize at job time in height, provided you stick to increments of 32mm, but you will need to be careful and choose the right cab with the appropriate number of adjustable shelves, before bringing in a cab at a job-time-height that is different from your seed.

Now with all that said, there may be a parameter one can set way early in eCabs that says, "let's do all this to a 32mm system," but so far, I have not found that little radio button.

Happy calculating!

[Karin Sasse]

Hi Mike

my cabinets have either 4 drawers the same size 4 @ 177mm, 3 the same size 3 @ 237mm, or 1+2 1@ 141 top 2 @ 285mm I set my drill press and the drawerfronts get drilled always the same distance from the bottom for Blum Tandembox, I adjust the runner height in the cabinet and use Dynalog program from Blum to tell me where set the Runnerjig and a cordless Dril with Sleevedrillbit and your done.
All cabinets have 4 legs the Corner Cabinets have 6. we use the 2 pin bases the ends of the sides are drilled by hafele and 2 screws.
Thanks Fred