Door Tooling

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leigh mills
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Door Tooling

Postby leigh mills » Tue, Jun 10 2008, 9:23AM

Hi Guys,
I am currently using backs to create my doors, so I won’t be using the door creator. I am slightly confused with the machining of the doors; this is because when creating the doors within eCabinet, associating the tool patterns and so on, I believe this won’t then be recognised from the machine. I can’t use the profile modeller because I have had to adapt my tools.
So what I would like to know is does the machine use the tool illustrated within ecabinet or do you have to choose the tooling for each job at the machine, this is because we have different style doors and we would have to change the tooling for each job. I know that the machine picks up the depth and the offsets for the tool.
If someone could let me know that would be brilliant.
Thanks
Leigh Mills

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Re: Door Tooling

Postby Will Williamson » Tue, Jun 10 2008, 3:20PM

You need to specify the tools at the machine if you use the tools in e cabinets to design the door then just specify those tools at the machine What are backs? do you have a machine? have you been making doors
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Damon Nabors
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Re: Door Tooling

Postby Damon Nabors » Tue, Jun 10 2008, 6:22PM

I just went through this process a few weeks ago. We used the back of a cabinet like you are doing so we can Batch and resize the parts. In ecab you can basically use any tool you want, we used a V bit tool to create the tool path or regions. Then we took the part into the constraint manager to lock the width of the rails and styles in. At the machine you will choose your custom tools and assign which tool number you want to use. The machine will do the rest. You can change up the tools by assigning different customer tools at the machine. If the diameter of the tool is different you will need to offset your tool paths so they do not intersect each other. Just go into ecab and pull up your part and change the constraints to reflect the new tool diameter.

I attached the file that we used, there is not an outside profile on the door because you can only use 2 custom tools at this time. I just cut my doors on the machine and then machined the outside profile on the shaper.

This is only good for MDF Doors. If you are not talking about MDF Doors disregard this statement, but I did enjoy getting to sit down for a few minutes and cool off.

Have a great day!

Damon Nabors
Attachments
PE-MDF Drawer_1.hsf
(276.02 KiB) Downloaded 124 times
PE-MDF Door_1.hsf
(288.02 KiB) Downloaded 134 times
Damon Nabors

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Neville Bastian
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Re: Door Tooling

Postby Neville Bastian » Thu, Jun 12 2008, 5:12AM

So Damon seeing you are first name basis with all the programmers at Thermwood, what's the story with door creator? Seems weird that you have to use the back of a cabinet to create a batch door program where you can resize your doors. Also seems strange that you only have limited door profiles (2)when you can have a number of tools available to you? My machine has 14 tool change so I'm a bit stunned that Ken has put this limitation on me.

I have been told that you can do your outside profile on the Thermwood without using a spindle moulder.Maybe I'm misinformed.
I'm still waiting to receive my Thermwood so sorry about the questions. The door manufacturing is a major reason for selecting the Thermwood due to its precision.

Regards Neville
Neville Australia

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Re: Door Tooling

Postby Will Williamson » Thu, Jun 12 2008, 6:07AM

Neville
Don,t worry as soon as you receive your machine within 6 months you will also Know most of the techs I hope you chipped in and bought pizza last month if not make sure you get on the list for the next event
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Damon Nabors
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Re: Door Tooling

Postby Damon Nabors » Thu, Jun 12 2008, 5:28PM

Neville, you can use a tool to outline the door, but you can only use a total of 2 custom tools to machine the door. That would give you one interior tool and one exterior tool. That is if you are using ecabinets. That being said, you can "model " the door with any design you create and that is pretty cool. It just takes a little more time with profile modeler.

The way I understand it now, If I want to use more than 2 custom tools at this time, I would have to use another software program such as Panel-matrix.

As far as being on a first name basis, Yes you will get to know the guys in support too if you are getting a machine. They are very helpful and will go above and beyond to help you with any programming issues. "Thank you Thermwood ".

The cabinet "Back" issue was just a quick and easy work around. You can draw up your door using a door, but it just made it real easy to use a cabinet back and place your geometry cuts on the part and then apply constraint to it. Then save the part as a cabinet and you can just batch all your doors and change the sizes of the doors easily.

Good luck,

Damon
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Neville Bastian
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Re: Door Tooling

Postby Neville Bastian » Thu, Jun 12 2008, 6:02PM

Thanks Guys I'm glad you didn't take offence.
Yes I'm sure it will be clearer once I walk the walk. My machine was due early Feb but its only rocking up next week so I feel like a Elephant going through a Elephants pregnancy. :lol:
I just feel a bit sorry for the programmers who worked on door creator to see the users are not using it but going for a work around. Its a shame they could not have done a few minor things to door creator to give some of the features needed, when doing 5.2.

Hopefully version 6 has a few tweaks happening?

All the best for the weekend

Regards

Neville
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Kerry Fullington
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Re: Door Tooling

Postby Kerry Fullington » Thu, Jun 12 2008, 7:05PM

Neville,

If you want to use the Door Creator to make your MDF Door and be able to batch nothing but the doors you can use Scott Vaal's method below.
This creates a cabinet that is nothing but a door which will resize.

I don't know if you batch doors like this a lot, but here is a fast way to do it by creating one (as a cabinet without other parts) and then changing it to any size in the batch.

Follow these to the "T"

1.) Load the std base frameless.
2.) Delete all cabinet parts except the toe kick.
3.) Go to door/drawer editor: set the door you want default and then add it to the cabinet (do not change any door con-settings).
4.) Return to main.
5.) Go to construction settings - toe kick tab: set the Height and Inset to zero, and uncheck "Has Toe", select OK.
6.) Save this cabinet and then batch any size/Qty door of this style that you want.


You can create a cabinet like this for every style door you want to batch.

Kerry

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Neville Bastian
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Re: Door Tooling

Postby Neville Bastian » Thu, Jun 12 2008, 7:28PM

Hi Kerry,
Thanks for the explanation. That will be a great help to us as we often do mdf doors for clients who make their own cabinets. Not having to create a cabinet to do a door will be very quick.
Do you why there is a limitation of two custom tools per part?
This does restrict the design ability in the 80/20 rule. Our designs clients request seem to be getting more simplistic?
I'm not saying my clients are simple but maybe they are getting lazy. None likes scrubbing doors any more.

Over and out

Neville
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Kerry Fullington
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Re: Door Tooling

Postby Kerry Fullington » Thu, Jun 12 2008, 7:44PM

Neville,

I don't know about the limits on custom tools. You might post this question on the Thermwood forum.

Kerry

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Re: Door Tooling

Postby Forrest Chapman » Fri, Jun 13 2008, 8:11AM

Neville,

When the mdf door designer first came out it was mostly intended to do one off designs thru profile modeler. This gave it incredible flexibility and is still a unique feature. It also included the ability to do 2 passes with any bit for simple designs and increased speed of production. Where the system is lacking is the ability to do tool sets. This allows you to design certains profiles by stacking dedicated tooling. The setup will machine the door with a minimum of tools and passes usually 1 pass per bit and give you a faster and cleaner cut. I've bent the ear of everyone I know at Thermwood for this feature and I would suggest if this is important to you that you make it known here and thru the feedback section of the software. Thermwood does listen and has already promised to do something soon but every response will bump it up the list.

Forrest

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Neville Bastian
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Re: Door Tooling

Postby Neville Bastian » Fri, Jun 13 2008, 8:07PM

Hi Forrest,
Its good to see someone else who feels the mdf routering off doors is important.
With Thermwood active in world markets they will know that mdf routered doors is a big percentage of kitchens supplied and in the upmarket sector would be over 80% here in Australia. When you open sales literature of most CNC manufactures the illustrations are often of nested doors with a detailed design in a nested pattern.
I believe the door creator has been developed for over 12 months with no change. The tool sets should be a priority as you don't want the Thermwood spending any more time than necessary to cut the profile and get on to the next sheet. There should be no limitation to door profiles as two is too limiting.
Getting door creator to do what we need and more would make more worldwide sales for sure.

I guess there is a few things we can do.
:idea: Keep up the pressure using the forum.
:idea: Bribery of the programming staff with food and drinks
:idea: Kidnapping of Jason at the next trade fair
:idea: Get T shirts printed for Atlanta with the slogan "Get creative with door Creator Thermwood"
:idea: Talk friends into buying a Thermwood but only if Thermwood upgrade the Door Creator
:idea: Offer under the table cash to those in positions of power.

That's all I can think of Forrest.
Regards
Neville
Neville Australia

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Neville Bastian
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Re: Door Tooling

Postby Neville Bastian » Fri, Oct 10 2008, 9:12PM

Sorry thought I just bump this to the front again.
After much research I can say the door program for MDF doors is pretty useless.
One pass for the outside and one pass for the inside is your choice.
Choice of a top arched door or a square door is about the door selection.

I guess the frustration is that with a few days programming it could be a lot better.
If we could have 3 outline and 6 internal that would allow for more high speed cutting of involved profiles.
If those cuts could be in a number of depth passes to achieve the end depth.
Justifying to the left and right of the centre line.

With a little more programming time a greater number of door designs based on a poll selection on the forum or via email
The ability to do square corners on certain tool shapes used on frames appearance.
The ability to automatically allow patterns on cabinet applied faces if they go to the floor or off the floor.
The ability to create pantry doors with a centre rail on the fly.
The ability to change the pattern on a drawer front.
The ability to do door with glass inserts. Single, double, quad etc.

I know the programmers are capable of better so maybe time was a issue on the current option.
Regards

Neville
Neville Australia

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Re: Door Tooling

Postby Will Williamson » Sat, Oct 11 2008, 9:43AM

Have you tried making your own Door patterns using DXF files? This approach would work today instead of waiting.
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Neville Bastian
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Re: Door Tooling

Postby Neville Bastian » Sat, Oct 11 2008, 10:37PM

Hi Will,
The DXF's can be created using Mastercam or sim but for every door design you have to create a door size to suit your current build. Maybe this could work if you restricted yourself to say 50mm 2" changes in width and kept to a few standard heights.
The entry of sizes can't come from Ecabinets automatically but from a spreadsheet with the dxf file name and quanity required.This entry can be prone to user error.
I'm sure DXF's is a great way to go but when you can't make them parametric it rams home how much time you could spend entering the data.
Its a bit late for me now as I can't wait for Thermwood as my old Muticam type router has a new home in a couple of weeks. I have been forced to use my old door design program and buy a expensive post processor to talk to the Thermwood. I will still have to manually enter the sizes and put up with the poor interface.
I'm just saying this incase other prospective Thermwood owners believe what I was told by my Oz dealer that doors could be produced exactly like my old system produced. I guess that is true if you use the profile modeller cabinet back workaround but a half a day to do 25 doors is out of the question. The Thermwood Ecabinet software really is USA biased. Great if you do 5 piece timber doors and drawers with dovetail joints or make face frames with those fantastic puzzle joints. Lacking when it comes to European Hettich Innotech metal drawer setup, screw together carcass construction and MDF doors for paint finish or Vinyl foil in house wrapping.
In some ways I think the free model of Ecabinets is a mistake. At least with paying for yearly updates you can complain about certain things not being right. Even if you spend $200k on a Thermwood you have no more sway than a single business cabinet shop owner with some saw horse supports with a sheet of ply using a Festo saw to cut up his kitchen based on Ecabinet drawings. I'm not saying I'm anything special because I own a Thermwood but I am saying Ecabinets is now mission critical for my efficiencies. It needs to do things better than the other software you pay $65K for.

Sorry that's enough ranting as it won't change anything.

Back to building boxes.

Regards

Neville
Neville Australia


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