eCabinet Software Poll

[Jean G Voyer]

Kerry,

I voted earlier (#4) but I came and revisit to see how the poll is going. The number of visit can be deceiving because of peoples like me coming back to see how it's increasing.
I must add that I use ecab mostly for design purposes. I try also to keep it the way I am building cabinets just in case I buy a cnc in the near future. For pricing I use a spreadsheet that I put together a few years ago and it always work well for me.

[David Coleman]

I'm still a neophyte to the business but I use ecabs to nest my materials and then buy the materials wherever I can. I keep up with local prices (I'm in the Chiwaukee, that Chicago and Milwaukee, corridor) and that gives me good access to all kinds of lumber and material. Ecabs helps me get in the ballpark and then I will add some markup based on my experience and complexity of the job. I've only been on my own for 5 years. I know that bidding is more an artform than a science.

David Coleman
Shaker Works

[Mike Bowers]

I use eCab for design and board count only, our material prices change as quick as the gas prices and I'm bad at updating material cost in eCab. My 2 cents.....
Mike

[JohnLashuay]

Right now I only use Ecab for the designs. I still am using a second software for pricing and cut sheet purposes.

We hope to be getting a CNC in the near future and that will force me to figure out the pricing.

John

[Kerry Fullington]

This Poll has been running for a little over two weeks and it looks like this is all the participation I am going to get. I was hoping for a larger sampling of the membership but this small sample shows what I suspected, that few of us are using eCabinets to calculate labor for our estimates.
At first I used eCabinets to calculate materials but that to has become too cumbersome with the discrepancies between the hardware etc. that is included with the software and the pricing/selection that is available through the Web Store. (I think much of this will be fixed in version 6)
The method eCabinets uses to calculate labor for custom work is basically worthless. It is mostly based on guesswork and is far too time consuming to implement. I think this is verified by the small number of members that are using it.
Job costing is one of the most important things eCabinets should do (just below creating a design and cut list). eCabinets has all of the necessary info to calculate job costs it just doesn't use that information yet. This could be accomplished inside the software (if it doesn't slow things down too much) or by sending the eCabinets info to a separate utility to make the calculations.
If you are machining parts on a Thermwood or cutting them the old fashioned way, your job cost needs to be accurate to insure you are making a profit. eCabinet System Software can provide that information.
This Poll was created to graphically show the important need for improvement in this area of the eCabinet Systems Software. Taking the guess work out of your bidding process is a very important part of any cabinet design and manufacturing software.

Kerry

[Junior L Lee]

This is my first post on this forum, finally got around to it. I've been using eCabinets for almost 2 years now and have used it for drawings, cutlists and presenatations. Tried using it initially for costs but did not like the numbers that it gave me.

Jr

[Michael S Murray]

Hi Kerry,
Another possibility is that some one like myself who does not do a drawing before the quote. I give an estimate based on what the client asks for with the understanding that the final hard quote will be very close as long as nothing drastic is changed.I for one will never spend another day providing drawings for free. I dont need the practice, nor have the time. I do use e-cabs to check on the job for material estimates after the fact and keep an eye on my estimating skills.

[Glenn Warner]

With all due respect, this poll proves nothing about the relative importance of this feature vis-a-vis other improvements. Also the goals and methodology for job costing, pricing, custom bids, etc, would have to be specified and agreed to, before such development could be undertaken. Eliminating guesswork is too vague of an objective. Cabinetmaker Magazine publishes an annual "Pricing Survey" which consistently demonstrates the almost mind boggling complexity and variability of this task. Almost like herding cats.

I think that software development resources would be better spent elsewhere.

[Gary Puckett]

How can you say this when other than the quality of your work the price of the work is second to none.

We are all in this to make money, and we know that time is money.

Gary

[Michael S Murray]

I also have great respect for Kerry and admire his abilitys(tried to hire him a dozen times)but,,,,, I have to somewhat agree with Glenn on the importance of the estimating abilitys of e-cabs at this point. I have had several different cabinet design programs and none of them could be trusted to do a estimate. I also held the cma midwest meeting here at my shop last friday and I took an informal poll on who was estimating right out of there design software and I dont beleive any one does.Personally, I would like to see some of the other design/production oriented improvements take priority over the estimating /proposal areas. I beleive most shops already have some kind of program/spread sheets available for estimating. Also, as I mentioned in a earlier response, Many of us do not do drawings until after the Money has been dealt with, so the estimating power is not really that important to those who do not produce drawings to get a estimate.

[Mike Seisser]

I'm one of the 9 who voted "uses nothing but eCabs". Let me predicate the explanation of my process by saying cabs are not my only business, and I'm not turning out an estimate a day, sometimes not even an estimate per week.

I've built a coupla different folders within my library that have nothing but boxes, doors, shelves, drawerboxes etc. in them. Let me clarify. My cabinet is ONLY a box (sides, back, deck, top, faceframe). My door is ONLY a door (made as a cabinet as discussed ad nauseum here on the forum). My drawer box is a cabinet with everything deleted except for a fixed shelf, rail and the drawer box, which I have chosen the hardware for. Same thing for shelves (adjustable or fixed, doesn't matter because I'm looking for accurate material count/labor cost). Basically, all the components of any given (or most common) cabinet. I have multiple directories based on species. These are all saved with labor figured in, and they have my standard hardware saved along with them. From there all I need to do is make a batch list in Excel and import it into eCabs. I usually nest the entire job once it's imported, then run the Cost Sheet.

The only part of the job cost that I can't figure is finishing, as I don't finish myself, and I don't have a handle on how many man hours it takes for any given component. Yet. (Here is where I wish Thermwood would give us an option for square footage for finishing, so that as cabinets are resized, the finishing cost gets adjusted - square footage is how my finishers bid my jobs.)

I don't need these batches to be accurate enough to cut from, only for pricing. These cabinets never get used as seeds for production. Just like Mike Murray already said, I don't do drawings for free. Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. If my price is agreed upon, I take a deposit and make a drawing.

This took me quite some time to set up initially, because I didn't really know where I was going with it when I started. Once I had the first library set up, it was a simple matter of opening each component, changing the species/material, and resaving them in a different folder. I have, at last count, 6 different 'Estimating Libraries' each with about 8 components. I have had to, from time to time, make a new component relative to a specific job, because what I already had created didn't cover something. Every time I do that, I keep that cab, and add it to my other libraries after swapping out materials.

This process is now much more efficient than drawing and saving every cab just for an estimate, and is much more accurate than figuring it out on paper with a calculator. The differences I've noticed so far have been negligible (~$1k on a $25K - $30K job) and have saved me hours of work.

[Kerry Fullington]

Glenn,

The Cabinet Maker Magazine Pricing Survey is one of the things that "screams" the need for some competent means to estimate custom cabinetry. The extreme range of estimates on the same job is a great example of where guesswork will get you. Cabinet Maker advocates the use of software in the estimating process as a prudent procedure for insuring profit but as Mike's experience with the folks at his CMA meeting, there doesn't seem to be any software company that is stepping up to the plate to address this problem. eCabinets can be that software company. They have all of the information needed to create an accurate estimate, they just need to implement a way to use that information.
One of the major reasons in using computer software to design your jobs is to get an estimate. All of the software companies claim their product can do this but it doesn't seem that any of them deliver.
Getting an accurate job cost from your design and manufacturing software is extremely important. The ability to create an accurate estimate is something EVERY shop needs regardless if they cut parts with a Thermwood router or an old Delta table saw and could be one more reason for shops to choose eCabinets over any of the competition.

Kerry