Shape manager retard

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Tim Massa
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Shape manager retard

Postby Tim Massa » Fri, Jan 23 2009, 5:39PM

O.K. This may be a stupid question but here goes.....

I'm selling a client on a mission style bookcase that will be modular in nature and quick to build. One thing I'm trying to do is create the type of verticle legs (1 5/8 x1 5/8"x 50"L) that are about .25" proud of the cabinet top and have that 4 sided cut at the top that looks like a very short pyramid.
My thinking was to create a squat, sided pyramid about 1/8" high and 1 5/8" square and cap all the legs. I created a board material 1/8" thick and loaded a 1 5/8"x 1 5/8" square of this material into part editor. Threw a chain around it and created a tool profile.
The tool profile was 1/8" high and 13/16 wide (the carbide height being the material thickness and 1/2 the width of the material) and tapered so that it should, in theory, create a 4 sided pyramid by following the outside contour of the 1 5/8" square.
It will create the 4 sided pyramid but it will reduce the 1 5/8 dimension to 1 1/8" square. If I try the operation comping right or left it will either reduce the size of the square or give me a "internal algorithmic failure in performing this operation". ..?!
This is with a tool shape with a 1/2" wide flat at the bottom and gave it a 1/2" diameter shank.
I next tried a "v" cutter shape that had the 1/8" carbide and 13/16 cutter width. Same result with following the center line. Same comping left or right. Error message.
Burning hours on this stupid problem and now it's personal!!!
I could pitch the design to the client with a "try to imagine it looking like this pencil sketch..." but I would rather not and figure out the problem for the future.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Tim

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DanEpps
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Re: Shape manager retard

Postby DanEpps » Fri, Jan 23 2009, 5:52PM

Are you talking about making a chamfered top leg like this?

Chamfered Leg.jpg
Chamfered Leg.jpg (21.45 KiB) Viewed 5130 times

Tim Massa
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Re: Shape manager retard

Postby Tim Massa » Fri, Jan 23 2009, 5:55PM

Hi Dan,
Almost, cept the chamfer would be wide enough to come to a point in the center of the table led, instead of the Flat that is still on yours (table leg top).

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Re: Shape manager retard

Postby DanEpps » Fri, Jan 23 2009, 6:25PM

Same concept...just create a tool of the appropriate angle (no diameter when you create the tool) and apply it to the top of a display cube.

I made my display cube 2 inches wide, 2 inches long and 36 inches deep. You can use a display board but you would have to create it so it the thickness is actually the desired length. When you add the board the length would be the same as the width.

Using the same 2x2x36 example, your display board material would be 2" long and 36" thick. When you add it the width would be 2" to give you a top view of a 2x2x36.

Then all you do is apply the tool to the perimeter using "chain" as you already have.

PE1.jpg
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PE2.jpg
PE2.jpg (50.5 KiB) Viewed 5090 times

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DanEpps
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Re: Shape manager retard

Postby DanEpps » Fri, Jan 23 2009, 6:34PM

Here is a quick and (very) dirty version of using a display board with a wide, low angle tool:

PE3.jpg
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Tim Massa
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Re: Shape manager retard

Postby Tim Massa » Sat, Jan 24 2009, 10:12AM

Holy Moly,
Thanks Dan, I'll try to reproduce the steps you outlined and post the result. Noticed how fast you were able to do that and it tells me I have to get into the modeling parts of the program more. I appreciate your help on this.
I read older post in the forum regarding tool profiles. It almost sounds like the tool shape might be able to be created in another cad program and brought in as a DXF? Is this possible? That would be a huge help in drawing up tooling.
Thanks,
Tim

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Re: Shape manager retard

Postby David Egnoski » Sat, Jan 24 2009, 11:47AM

Tim,

I use AutoCad LT to draw the tool shape and then import the dxf into eCabinets. I'm much more experienced drawing the shapes of tools in LT.
Dave Egnoski
Richmond Cabinet & Millwork

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Re: Shape manager retard

Postby Tim Massa » Sat, Jan 24 2009, 12:33PM

Dan,
Can you get the same results with a board stock that's just 1/8" thick by the 1 5/8 x 1 5/8 square dimensions? Reason being that if I creat a material that has the desired length of the leg as a thickness of material, then the grain runs the wrong way.
If the pyramis shapes, themselves, could be created as seperate peices they could be added to the traditionally created legs (with the grain going the right way) and be reused in other designs perhaps.
I'm still working off of your earlier instructions and trying to get it to work in the next few minutes.
Gotta say I love the latest update idea for assembly marks on the parts. Hope I get this job. Will be milling the case thru a THermwood owner and it will nice to try it out.
Dave, do you import the DXF file into the shape manager directly and then save it off as a .tol? I will try this as soon as I can get my legs sorted out. That's great news to me.
Thanks guys,
Tim

Tim Massa
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Re: Shape manager retard

Postby Tim Massa » Sat, Jan 24 2009, 12:43PM

Hey Dan,
Tried creating the leg using the board thickness as the leg length as you posted earlier. Same error gets thrown up. alogorithmic failure etc...
Can't get my head around the problem. I created a "V" bit that has a 1/8" carbide height and has a 1 5/8" diameter. No diameter was specified and the tool ran centered on the chain line. AAARRRGGGG!!!!
I cant seem to get it. Any ideas as to what I'm doing wrong?
Thanks

Tim Massa
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Re: Shape manager retard

Postby Tim Massa » Sat, Jan 24 2009, 1:58PM

The tool that I created was a "v" bit that has the pont of the "V" on the 0,0 point in shape manager. It was then drawn from 0,0 to -13/16,1/8 for the left side of the bit. Then it went from 0,0 to 13/16,1/8 for the right side of the bit. finally a line was drawn from -13/16,1/8 to 13/16,1/8 completing the "v" shape. I then saved off the tool as having no diameter and applied it to a board that was 51" thick, 1 5/8 wide by 1 5/8 long. Set the plunge depth to -1/8. Same crappy error message. I've redrawn the tool with the point of the V at -1/8 and set the plunge depth to 0. Same crappy result. I have been able to perform the routing operation with any stock amana or cmt shape, just not my own. What the .......Frustrating!
Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'm going to the pencil sketch and "imagine..." speech with the clients, since getting a design out quickly is more important than stalling for this detail. It's just the compulsive obsessive nature that gets brought out that makes me want to solve this. Especially since Dan has demonstrated it can be done...Frustrating!
Again, thanks for any advice.
Tim

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Re: Shape manager retard

Postby DanEpps » Sat, Jan 24 2009, 2:12PM

It sounds like what is happening to you is that the tool is overlapping on the top center. Make the point of the "V" lust a bit left of 0,0 and make sure the tool is wide enough on the right side to cut to the edge.

I ran into the same error when using the tool set exactly at 0,0 so I offset it left 1/16" and you can see that it left a lip around the edge. It would not have done this is it were wider.

The tool does not have to be "V" shaped unless you use it to cut a groove. All you need is the right side to cut a pattern like this. Kerry Fullington said it this way: "This of the tool as a scraper instead of a rotating router bit."

Once you have the part shaped like you want, export it (select the part, click "File" on the menu then click "Export Selection" on the menu) and texture it in the Display Part Editor.

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Re: Shape manager retard

Postby Tim Massa » Sat, Jan 24 2009, 2:34PM

Dan,
I went ahead and re drew the right hand side of the "v" bit and started the tip at -1/64,0. I then drew the right side 13/16+1/64,1/8. Depth was set at -1/8". The result was a 1/64 wide, 1/8" deep rabbit at the top of the leg going all the way around. This occurred if the chain moved from L-R or R-L. I would send you an image of the result but don't know how to do that yet. Any thoughts?
Thanks for the time your giving me on this. I realize that everyone's time is important,
Tim

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Re: Shape manager retard

Postby DanEpps » Sat, Jan 24 2009, 3:08PM

You want the tip of the pyramid to be 1/8" higher than the sides, correct?

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Re: Shape manager retard

Postby DanEpps » Sat, Jan 24 2009, 3:50PM

Here is a zip file of zip files of steps for each part of the equation.

Look at the files in this order (follow numeric names for order of individual images):

1. Shape Manager (SM1.jpg-SM2.jpg)
2. Part Editor (PE1.jpg-PE4.jpg)
3. Display Part Editor (DPE1.jpg-DPE11.jpg)
4. Cabinet Editor (CE1.jpg-CE2.jpg)
Attachments
Chamfered Leg.zip
(878.92 KiB) Downloaded 160 times

Tim Massa
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Re: Shape manager retard

Postby Tim Massa » Sat, Jan 24 2009, 4:11PM

Dan,
I sit in the juices of my unworthiness to come and ask you e-cab questions!
O.K. I just figured it out. The first "one sided" tool bit that I attempted after your instructions were cutting just the 1/64", to the left of 0,0, off my part ( in my defense, I stated that I was a shape manager retard, though). I figured why not try and draw the wing cutter to the left of 0,0 and see if that will get the chamfer on the leg. BINGO! So there is a disconnect between me and the software over how the cutter is behaving. I'm trying to relate it to a router bit and if i'm moving the bit, the direction of bit movement (the chain direction) would be the Z axis of the x,y,z, coordinates. If the material is on the left of Z then it would be logical (not saying correct) that the cutter (or scraper as you mentioned) should be drawn to the left of Y in shape manager. Yet that does not seem to be the case. I will open the ZIP'ed instructions and see if there are any hints as to what the software is thinking. I re-read the manual a number of times and am still missing it.
Any advice on getting a drawn profile from, say TurboCad, into your tool folder in e-cabs.
By the way, the display part editor was just the ticket. I feel like I've taken the foot off the gas with some areas of the program and am paying the price for it in this situation.
Huge thank you,
Tim


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