how can you protect your drawing

[Gary Puckett]

Kerry,

I agree, and the solution that I am going to try is when going to the clients with a proposal bring the lap top show them the rendering and when I leave the lab top and drawing goes with me. Unless they sign the contract,and put down money for material.

I feel that way you are not insulting the client because of a bad experience with a previous client and you can't get hurt by lossing your design.

Gary


P.S. Kerry that kitchen is awesome, NIce Job

[Michael S Murray]

Gary, I use to do that also, I would take my laptop to their house, draw the room details, bring it back to office, transfer it to my desktop, design the job, call in the client to go over drawings, then inevitably they would ask for print outs, I would tell them I dont print out anything until I have a deposit, ya right, then I would say to myself, these people love me and arent about to go any where else, so I print them out and away they gto to never be seen again...........

AND even if you dont give them the prints, you still have spent hours, maybe days, designing something that you or any one else might never build..........

Not trying to tell any one there business, I can tell you I learn something everyday, but I find that the more I act like a proffesional who's time is valuable, the better I do in business.

[Michael S Murray]

what the heck, my 1/2 hour reply post to Kerry dissapeared, I know it was here??

[Gary Puckett]

Mike it does that sometimes, it's happen to me on several occasions.
All you can do is rewrite it.

Gary

[Kerry Fullington]

Mike,

If you have a long post, write it in notepad and copy and paste. For some reason posts disappear on this forum. I have found that if I backspace too many times poof there goes the post.

Kerry

[Michael S Murray]

Hi Guys,
I will try to explain how I do it again tommorow, I have another hour here at office yet tonight, plus I can hear my grandaughters hollering for me. I know they need me to get home and spoil them...........

[Peter Walsh]

I guess I will jump in here and support those who have decided not to give out drawings.
In my case, I never do drawings unless I have a down payment. My approach is to show the customer-prospect (at his home) my eCab rendering of my design on my laptop. I advise them that I am willing to come back without charge if they want to see the design again to pose questions or firm up their decision. I never leave a copy of the image and when asked to do so, say that I do not provide my designs and work effort without charging for it (insert price). Since I live in So. Cal. there is substantial competition from low-cost "new arrivals" that will build anything for less (not including the same quality, however).
Once I have the down payment (never less than 40%) I will make drawings, but only for my own use ( I am a one man non-CNC shop). Once the down payment is made, the customer gets a copy of the renderings so he can be assured he gets what he saw on the screen as well as being able to send it to family and friends. I can't come up with any valid reason why a customer would want drawings, except to shop your price somewhere else. The eCab rendering image solves all that, but keep in mind, a good color rendering image can really help a competitor, especially one who can't draw.
I know there is always fear of losing a sale, but once the customer-prospect asks for drawings he is telling you that you have already lost it.
regards,

[DanEpps]

Good points Peter. I cannot think of another good reason a customer would want drawings either except to show-off.

One key thing you said that bears noting: Down payment versus deposit. Deposit infers refundable while down payment does not. The amount of the down payment (not deposit) also helps to weed out the folks looking for free designs.

It would probably be good to ask up front "are you ready to commit to purchase or are you just shopping for prices?" Of course most folks will say they are ready to commit and that is when you lay out the 40% down payment. The ones that run away at this point are just saving you time, effort, money and frustration.

[Gary Puckett]

Hey Guys,

Heres another question, has anyone ever got a straight answer to the question " what is your budget for this project " ?

Gary

[Peter Walsh]

" what is your budget for this project " ?
You know, I never felt comfortable with this question because it usually prompts the customer to lie and never reveal how much he is willing to spend. I know I wouldn't ever reveal this to a contractor, neither would you. My approach is to deliver in my presentation exactly what the customer has asked for, and to have two alternates available at time of presentation. THEN, you offer choices, not stalemate, and an improved chance of close. I look at each project and ask myself, how can I embellish this project to look/perform better and make more money? I show up with, and present, the standard version, then the 'enhanced' version and if pressed, a price with certain items removed or changed. A little extra work, but who wants to go into battle without some extra ammo? I don't. (also saves a trip back for another presentation).

Lately, I have been getting some calls for really small jobs of furniture repair, adds, etc. I have decided to advise the customer that I don't take on any project that is less than (enter $$ figure here). "If you are comfortable with this for your project I will measure things up and quote you a price....". You have to have reasonable assurance that your trip will not be wasted by Trixie who wants the knobs on her cabinet tightened up (no joke intended) and then discovers it will actually cost some money.
regards,

[Gary Puckett]

Ok Pete,

But how many times have you heard " how much do you want to spend " or watching these designer shows and they say the customer has $xxxxxxx amount of money to spend on a project , or on this old house they have to try and stay within the budget.

Don't you think we deserve the same consideration so

1) we have an idea when designing the project

2) we would have an idea even if that number is feasible


Lets say you go to a clients house for a 12' long 10' high wall unit made from Maple and stained to try and match the surrounding furniture with all the bells and whistles bump outs, the works,and installed well you have an idea it's going to be around 8-9 thousand.(just guessing). The client only wants to spend 5 thousand. How many hours in design did you waist, ware if he told you this up front he is educated in reality and you didn't waste any time.

All I'm saying is it would be nice if life was like that

Gary

[Damon Nabors]

I normally like to take my portfolio book with me and I can show customers different styles of work we have done in the past. Usually the question will come up "What does something like this run"?. Usually from that point I can get a response of what style they are looking for and what type of budget they are on. Most of my customers have picked up kitchen magazines of some sort and have an idea of what they are looking for.

I agree with Peter, I have never gotten an honest answer to the Budget question.

[Michael S Murray]

Hey Guys, I am short on time here, lost a 1/2 hour post to Kerry this weekend, but here is a copy of something I posted on wood web a long time ago. I have several other examples that have convinced me to never do a drawing before I got some of there money, I might do a quickie and throw some standard cabinets in to get some ideas, but the customer never sees it. I ALWAYS ask for a budget and I ALWAYS tell them I will be 20-30% higher than anything they could pick out at any of the big box stores, then I lay down about 15-20 customer satisfaction sheets in front of them and tell them I look forward to reading the one they fill out after there project is done..

Stephan,
I do know what your saying, beleive me.
I have struggled with this and I am sure most have, but I have given away the last hour of my time I care to. If I am going to donate my time, it will be to my children and grandaughters..If you dont get a job you have spent 8-10 hours or more designing, then you are charging your clients that you do get a job from for the drawings that you gave away to another potential client. Case in point, was called for an appointment to a potential client, they laid out drawings on there existing island from at least 3 of the big box stores, told me how they werent satisfied with any of them and had heard that I was the go to guy to get great designs and solve problems that others seemed to be stumped on. I put there room dim. on my laptop and proceeded to tell them what other jobs similar in size and detail had cost and that if they would like to proceed I would need a $500 dollar deposit to cover at least part of my labor to do there drawings and that when I was done the drawings were theres to do what they wanted to with, and that if we built the job, it would be taken off the cost. Left the site without a offer of the deposit to only have them call 3 weeks later asking if I had there drawings done and that if not they needed them within a few days because they were ready to get started. MY office manager sent them an invoice for the deposit, and I have not heard from them in 2 months.......That just reinforced my no free drawings policy once again.

[Michael S Murray]

Real quick,
As far as estimates without drawings, I do know it is hard to swallow, but it can be done. Kerry, the kitchen you posted is awsome, but if you had a accurate spreadsheet developed it would be a breeze. I used to do my own but I invested in business partner from Bob Buckley a couple years ago. It took me a couple long weekends and still occasionaly takes me a few minutes to tweak, but it still saves me so much time it is unreal, plus my estimates are dead on,consistent and they look profesional. IF you would like you can go to true 32 and look at samples of business partner, you could develop your own, I did, but KNowing what I know now, I would buy bp to start.

I know we all think we do things different, better, whatever and could never quote without drawings, But I promise you it works and will help your business in the long run. If any one doubts that you cant estimate without drawings, go to true 32 site, go to Bob Buckleys persoanal cabinet web-site and look closely at some of the kitchens he does, nothing cookie cutter about them and I know for a fact that not one design was developed before he had money in his pocket.

Basicall you have to develop a cost for every item you use, count the sticks of moulding, drawer boxes, hinges, slides, wiping your nose, etc. Every job no matter what it is, breaks down in to components, even if you are building rocket ships, if you develop a cost for each component on the rocket ship, add up the components and you now have a cost to build that rocket ship!!

My final proposals are always within a few hundred of the final proposal, unless the client decides to add some major items or change wood specie, etc.

So much for real quick huh!

[Sergio Fetter]

Hey guys,

What I have learned in this business is very simple. There are many types of customers, you just have to have the feel for them. Some people, if you charge for the drawings, they will never more come back. A lot of them, specially now, they are trying to do a lot with a little money. Then, the there are other customers that don't care to pay a for the drawings. You have to do your homework, and find out what the market in your area is doing.
This is my approach... Get a certain amount of money for the drawings, tell them if you get the job, this fee will be refunded... But in my bid I count your time doing drawings blend in with the other stuff. But when you present your drawing, don't just present, sell your job through the drawing to the customer... make sure that they know you are it!

But this is a very touchy subject. Like Dan said in one of his posts... you can't prohibit the customer to use your drawings; for instance, if someone comes with a drawing and ask you to bid on that drawing, and you know this drawing is from John's cabinet shop... what would you do?
If you charge for the drawing, John's cabinet shop doesn't, you may loose some business. You just have to look around. We have to understand, this is business... today we may win... tomorrow we may loose... But when we loose, we just need to lift our heads up and go to the next battle.

Gary, you just have to look at you competition. If they are offering free drawings. You may have to do that.


P.S. Kerry, how long did you take to do that drawing?