cnc questions

Discuss Thermwood 3-axis Machinery, Controller, and Software.

Moderators: Jason Susnjara, Larry Epplin, Clint Buechlein, Jim Bullis

Post Reply
ian bacchet
Junior Member
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue, Jul 06 2010, 10:08PM
Company Name: IB woodworking

cnc questions

Post by ian bacchet »

Hello I am looking into buying a used Thermwood, it seems like a really good deal but just wanted to pass it by here to see what you think.
its a 1995 Model 53, with upgraded controller and i believe it comes with an air drill. and its being sold for $15000us.
I have been using Ecabinets for quite a while already but I have adapted it for cutting with a panel saw, but i am now ready to make the leap to cnc but have several newbie questions.
Are all cnc's able to do nesting?
With this particular cnc would I be able to use ecabinets with it?
If this model doesn't come with a tool changer, and I would normally just use it for cabinet making so to cut and make holes. Would an air drill attachment make it so i don't have to change tools all the time? Can you put boring bits in an air drill?
When I am in Ecabinets and make a twd file for the cnc is it automatically nested? can we make adjustments for cutting speed etc so when cutting small pieces they wont move?

Thanks
Clint Buechlein
Thermwood Team
Posts: 696
Joined: Fri, May 15 2015, 1:21PM
Company Name: Thermwood Corp
Country: UNITED STATES

Re: cnc questions

Post by Clint Buechlein »

Ian,

Do you have the serial number for the machine you are looking at? If I have that I can see what software version is on the machine and get a better idea of how to answer some of your questions. Other answers are below:

Are all cnc's able to do nesting? It should be updatedable to be able to, but depends on software version.

With this particular cnc would I be able to use ecabinets with it? Depends on software version.

If this model doesn't come with a tool changer, and I would normally just use it for cabinet making so to cut and make holes. Would an air drill attachment make it so i don't have to change tools all the time? Can you put boring bits in an air drill? Without a tool changer and with an air drill, you would be limited to the one tool in the spindle and the air drill. The air drill is only capable of up down drill motions, no side to side routing. So your main tool in the head would do pocketing, dados, and outline cuts, the air drill would do your shelf pin holes. The air drill is essentially and electric drill that is on a slide controlled with air. Similar to using a hand electric drill, you can only push it down so fast, and the torque is limited as well.

When I am in Ecabinets and make a twd file for the cnc is it automatically nested? can we make adjustments for cutting speed etc so when cutting small pieces they wont move? ECabinets only sends out part data. The machine does the nesting and toolpathing, then creates the code. Your tooling settings on the machine will decide programmed feed speeds. You should have the option for a feed rate knob to manually slow the machine down for smaller parts. If the machine has Control Nesting, there is some programming to automatically program a slower feed rate for smaller parts.

-Clint-
ian bacchet
Junior Member
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue, Jul 06 2010, 10:08PM
Company Name: IB woodworking

Re: cnc questions

Post by ian bacchet »

Here is the serial number, C530080494 / 1994 Build but the controller has been updated in 2015 to Windows 7 / THM 9.1.0 / QCore / 3 Axis .
Does the machine automatically take into account that it has an air drill installed on it or does it take some sort of programming?
Clint Buechlein
Thermwood Team
Posts: 696
Joined: Fri, May 15 2015, 1:21PM
Company Name: Thermwood Corp
Country: UNITED STATES

Re: cnc questions

Post by Clint Buechlein »

Ian,

Being THM9 with Windows 7 it can be updated to latest software version for free (current version is 10.6.2 of THM, Control Nesting 6.22).

The air drill is treated as a tool, no special programming required. The machine should know the distance between the spindle and the drill so when the drill is called the machine moves over to land the drill in the right spot.

Since machine is on new enough software, it has/can have latest version of Control Nesting so running eCabinets files shouldn't be an issue. Your largest hurdle to overcome will be making your designs in eCabinets compatible with using one router bit and one drill bit. There will likely be difficulties compared to newer machines (such as maybe no tool sensor, probably doesn't have locator pins, lack of a programmable spindle), but you should be able to overcome them.

So to rehash answers to your original questions, that machine can have latest version of nesting software and it is compatible with eCabinets. You design in eCabinets, the nesting software will nest parts, toolpath them, and create the code for the machine to run. It can be set to do all this automatically when you load the file, or you can do it by clicking the buttons so you can verify the nests before cutting. Cutting speeds are set up in the nesting software. The nesting software has logic built in to automatically slow down based on part size or you should be able to control the speed with the feed rate override knob manually.

-Clint-
ian bacchet
Junior Member
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue, Jul 06 2010, 10:08PM
Company Name: IB woodworking

Re: cnc questions

Post by ian bacchet »

Ok, thanks a lot for the answers Clint.
Again I am a total newbie so forgive me for my questions but what is a tool sensor and locator pins for? And what do you mean by a programable spindle?
And how exactly would I be able to overcome these issues?
I essentially use Ecabinets for cutting melamine sheets for my cabinets, all my cabinets are but joint and I use Blum hardware so i need to pierce 5mm holes for hinges rails and shelves etc. So am i wrong but wouldn't i need only one bit for cutting in the main spindle and a 5mm boring bit in the air drill?
If the program asked to change tool and there is no tool changer, does the cnc automatically stop and let you change bit?
Clint Buechlein
Thermwood Team
Posts: 696
Joined: Fri, May 15 2015, 1:21PM
Company Name: Thermwood Corp
Country: UNITED STATES

Re: cnc questions

Post by Clint Buechlein »

Ian,

You're welcome. See my answers below in red:

Again I am a total newbie so forgive me for my questions but what is a tool sensor and locator pins for? The tool sensor sets the Z reference for the tool so it knows where the tool is in reference to the work surface. Locator pins, newer name for them pop up pins, are output controlled aluminum blocks that come up for you to locate a sheet to, then the output retracts them so they are out of the way for cutting. It makes it so locating sheets is consistent from sheet to sheet.

And what do you mean by a programable spindle? That machine has an older spindle that has one speed. It gets turned on and off, you don't get to pick the rpm. Programmable spindles allow you to program the rpm the spindle is running at.

And how exactly would I be able to overcome these issues? For the tool sensor, you have to find the Z reference height manually each time you change out a tool. If you don't change out a tool it is stored in the machine. You could also make a tool setter so the tools are all the same distance out of the collet. Then you have a consistent Z reference between tools. For a lack of locator pins, you will just need to find a way to reference a sheet into the same spot each time (or at least really close to the same spot). In regards to the spindle, you'll just need to program your feed rate relative to the spindle's speed. I believe it is 15,000 rpm, so your feed speed will be based off that rpm.

I essentially use Ecabinets for cutting melamine sheets for my cabinets, all my cabinets are but joint and I use Blum hardware so i need to pierce 5mm holes for hinges rails and shelves etc. So am i wrong but wouldn't i need only one bit for cutting in the main spindle and a 5mm boring bit in the air drill? Correct. The main router tool will cut your parts free, the air drill will do your 5mm holes. You will be able to use the main router tool to also do hinge cup holes and any other pockets or recesses. I'd encourage you to look into other construction methods in eCabinets as it will make cabinet assembly so much faster. If you use a 3/8" router bit in the main head all mortices and tenons will need to be 3/8" or larger.

If the program asked to change tool and there is no tool changer, does the cnc automatically stop and let you change bit? It will not. The machine will assume you have made the bit change as soon as the new tool is called, update the Z reference value and keep cutting. You can create custom code that can happen after a tool call. The custom code could have prompts or simply stop the machine and allow you to change the tool so it doesn't automatically continue cutting.

-Clint-
ian bacchet
Junior Member
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue, Jul 06 2010, 10:08PM
Company Name: IB woodworking

Re: cnc questions

Post by ian bacchet »

For the fixed speed of the spindle at 15000rpm, am i limited to certain sizes of bits? will that give me issues for cutting melamine panels? if I have to go to fast will it not cause me problems like chipping or chatter or something.
Also where can i see the tool that ecabinets will call up and how can i modify that? you Said I could modify the code to stop for a tool change, is that complicated, where do i see the coding for a job from ecabinets?

thanks
Clint Buechlein
Thermwood Team
Posts: 696
Joined: Fri, May 15 2015, 1:21PM
Company Name: Thermwood Corp
Country: UNITED STATES

Re: cnc questions

Post by Clint Buechlein »

Ian,

See below in red:

For the fixed speed of the spindle at 15000rpm, am i limited to certain sizes of bits? Only if the bit is not capable of going that speed. Most bits smaller than 2" are capable of going 15,000rpm. Most everything else has a higher limit or upwards of 30,000 rpm limit.

will that give me issues for cutting melamine panels? RPM is only part of the equation when cutting any material. Feed speed, spindle speed, diameter of bit, and number of flutes on a bit decide everything. The more flutes, generally the faster you have to go or slower spindle speed. Same for a larger diameter bit. You would likely be good with a 3/8" bit at that rpm for melamine. Tooling manufacturers such as Vortex and Royce can make suggestions for tooling based on the material you cut and your fixed rpm.

if I have to go to fast will it not cause me problems like chipping or chatter or something. Think of the cnc router as a table saw. On a table saw you are looking to push through at the right speed where you don't burn the material by going to slow, feel the push back when you push too hard, and you keep fresh blades to keep from chipping. Same goes for a CNC router, you just don't get the same kind of feedback. The machine will plow through and either sound bad cutting, give you a bad cut, or break something.

Also where can i see the tool that ecabinets will call up and how can i modify that? ECabinets will not call any tools. All tooling is handled at the machine. In the tool settings at the machine you define what tools you have that can be used. The nesting software assigns tools for the operations.

you Said I could modify the code to stop for a tool change, is that complicated, where do i see the coding for a job from ecabinets? In the nesting software there is a place where you can add in code that happens before or after a tool change. I can't really answer the complication question. One line of code will stop the machine. Or you can have several lines that check the active tool and make a decision based on that to continue to move to a position for changing tool. If it were me I'd try to keep it as simple as possible and design around one tool. The machine could likely be retrofitted to a programmable tool change spindle, though I'd guess the cost of that upgrade would pass what you are looking to pay for the machine. If you plan to continue down the road of butt joint cabinets, one router tool and a 5mm drill will work fine. You could likely get away with full dado construction as well using just a 3/8" tool. The nesting software creates the code for the job and displays it on the screen. You can arrow through the code or open it in Notepad to view it.

-Clint-
ian bacchet
Junior Member
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue, Jul 06 2010, 10:08PM
Company Name: IB woodworking

Re: cnc questions

Post by ian bacchet »

Thanks again Clint for that info
I would ideally try to keep it simple like you suggest.
I often also often build bookcases that use dowels so i was thinking maybe could I find a 8mm cutting bit and use that to make 8mm dowel holes or is it possible to use the 5mm bit in the air drill to make 8mm holes? would any of those options work?
Or maybe otherwise is it possible to add a second air drill?
Clint Buechlein
Thermwood Team
Posts: 696
Joined: Fri, May 15 2015, 1:21PM
Company Name: Thermwood Corp
Country: UNITED STATES

Re: cnc questions

Post by Clint Buechlein »

Ian,

See below in red:

I often also often build bookcases that use dowels so i was thinking maybe could I find a 8mm cutting bit and use that to make 8mm dowel holes or is it possible to use the 5mm bit in the air drill to make 8mm holes? The air drill will only do up/down motions, you cannot route with it. The bit in the air drill would have to be 8mm. You could put an 8mm bit in the main router head, however you'll want a compression bit for routing and you have a great risk of fire when drilling with a compression bit.

Or maybe otherwise is it possible to add a second air drill? Most things are possible, though I don't know that the cost of the retrofit would be worth it. I'd rather put the money towards a programmable tool change spindle.

-Clint-
Post Reply