Cabinet Finish

Off-topic discussion that doesn't pertain to the other forums.

Moderator: Jason Susnjara

Alan Odell
Junior Member
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun, Nov 13 2005, 4:07PM
Location: Ventura California

Re: Cabinet Finish

Postby Alan Odell » Sun, Sep 13 2009, 2:04PM

Good Info from all. I am looking to go to waterborne products. Litte skimish because I dont know what I dont know. Really only finish because I cant find anyone else who will that does a decent job. Hate to see good cabinets get screwed up by a bad finish which has happend more than the other way around. My biggest obstacle right now is Maple. People want to use Maple but I cant finish it. Between what I have read here and else where I think I will make myself an enertainment center and see what happens. Have to start some where. Seems like dyes are a better way to go and then use stains as accents. And use shellac. I any event thanks for all the input.

User avatar
Damon Nabors
eCabinets Beta Tester
Posts: 923
Joined: Wed, Apr 05 2006, 5:50PM
Location: Marion, Ar.
Contact:

Re: Cabinet Finish

Postby Damon Nabors » Sun, Sep 13 2009, 2:23PM

the easiest thing to do is apply a clear stain base (this is the same as the stain but without any pigments added). Once it is sprayed or wiped on, let sit a minute and then wipe off. Let dry and then apply your stain. I use to use a wash coat but later learned from the MLC rep that the stain base does the same thing with out any ill effects on the finish. Either way will work but the gallon of stain base will go a long way and you don't have to worry about "how did I mix that again". If you are doing a large job and don't mix enough wash coat and you mix the next batch with a slightly different ratio, you will end up with different colors.

The main thing to remember when doing cherry, maple, or birch is that they tend to blotch, so try to build up to the color in multiple coats rather than trying to acheve it in one coat. Once again, toners work very well at dying the wood rather than staining the wood. Toners should be used on sap woods and light colored areas to blend things together. If you can avoid sap woods try to. I personally try to lay out all my wood prior to milling and get the colors uniform so that there is not a "sore thumb" sticking out at you.
Damon Nabors

User avatar
Kerry Fullington
Wizard Member
Posts: 4566
Joined: Mon, May 09 2005, 7:33PM
Company Name: ProSource of Amarillo
Country: UNITED STATES
Location: Amarillo, TX

Re: Cabinet Finish

Postby Kerry Fullington » Sun, Sep 13 2009, 5:32PM

Damon,

The clear stain base does have its own set of problems if not used properly. On a recent maple job the painter that did the finishing used the clear stain base and either didn't wipe it in a timely manner or didn't wipe it throughly or more likely used the same rag to wipe for too long where it was sloppy wet and it showed a dirty rag wiping effect after the stain was applied because too much of the clear stain base was left on the wood. When the customer complained he said that it was water stains on the doors. The doors came from Walzcraft and I don't think so.
Any technique is only as good as the guy using it and the best thing is to try several and keep the one that works best for you.


Kerry

User avatar
Gary Puckett
Wizard Member
Posts: 1324
Joined: Mon, May 19 2008, 1:39PM
Company Name: The Woodworkery
Location: Saint Charles, Missouri
Contact:

Re: Cabinet Finish

Postby Gary Puckett » Sun, Sep 13 2009, 5:48PM

When applying any wash coat you are filling the pours of the wood correct? If this is the case should you use a gel stain because how can a solvent base stain penitrate into the wood :?

Gary
HP Pavilion
Vista home Premium 64bit S. pack 2
AMD Phenom-X4
9850 Quad-Core Processor
6.0GB/Go Memory
1 TB/To Hard Drive
Nividia GeForce 9800 GT

User avatar
Kerry Fullington
Wizard Member
Posts: 4566
Joined: Mon, May 09 2005, 7:33PM
Company Name: ProSource of Amarillo
Country: UNITED STATES
Location: Amarillo, TX

Re: Cabinet Finish

Postby Kerry Fullington » Sun, Sep 13 2009, 6:29PM

Gary,

Here is some pretty good info on Wash Coats and how they work.

Kerry

Wally Schneeberger
Guru Member
Posts: 473
Joined: Tue, May 17 2005, 1:55PM

Re: Cabinet Finish

Postby Wally Schneeberger » Sun, Sep 13 2009, 9:17PM

If anyone want's a real simple way to colour Maple or Cherry or anything that blotches just use a spray stain from MLC called Windsong 2. You can make it as dark or as light as you want without blotching and once sealed with anything ( lacquer ) it can be Glazed or accented as you wish. It is quite easy as you build up your coats lightly until colour is a achieved and they will match any colour you want. I use it all the time and everyone loves the results. Heres a couple different ones done with it.
M8.jpg
M8.jpg (219 KiB) Viewed 3302 times


HN.jpg
HN.jpg (38.64 KiB) Viewed 3302 times
Image

User avatar
Kerry Fullington
Wizard Member
Posts: 4566
Joined: Mon, May 09 2005, 7:33PM
Company Name: ProSource of Amarillo
Country: UNITED STATES
Location: Amarillo, TX

Re: Cabinet Finish

Postby Kerry Fullington » Mon, Sep 14 2009, 9:07AM

Looks good Wally,

I need to try some of the ML Campbell products. They aren't readily available here so I have never used them.

Damon,

I am giving the clear stain base a try today on some sample pieces. I am going to see if I like it better than the wash coat.

Kerry

User avatar
Damon Nabors
eCabinets Beta Tester
Posts: 923
Joined: Wed, Apr 05 2006, 5:50PM
Location: Marion, Ar.
Contact:

Re: Cabinet Finish

Postby Damon Nabors » Mon, Sep 14 2009, 4:33PM

Kerry,

I personally have used both and really have no problem using either method, I just got to using the ML Campbell stain base because it was more consistant. Yes you are correct in the fact that you have to be carefull when wiping it back off. If you let it puddle up, you will have problems and that is true with the wash coat as well. I ran into a problem with the wash coat when I was working some finishers in my paint room not mixing the same ratio every time. "Eyeball" this amount and that amount if you know what I mean. :wall:

I use the woodsong 2 as well and that is a wiping stain. You generally don't want to let the pigments sit ontop of the wood. Not to say I haven't fogged it on before to blend some areas.
Damon Nabors

Michael S Murray
eCabinets Beta Tester
Posts: 933
Joined: Tue, May 17 2005, 2:48PM
Location: Logansport, In
Contact:

Re: Cabinet Finish

Postby Michael S Murray » Mon, Sep 14 2009, 6:09PM

Hi Guys,
I got a book 4-5 years ago by Ron Bryze who is or was a ml campbell rep. He also spent a lot of years actually finishing. The book is called The college of wood finishing Knowledge, a guide to the business of wood finishing.
His web-site is ronbryze.com.It also has a ton of stuff on it. One things he explains in detail is wash coats and how to get accurate solids content. I have a lot of finishing books, some are definetly homeowner friendly, some are so technical that there useless, his book is right on the mark for some one trying to finish and make money in the process...
He also posts on wood web finishing forum, another good source for info.
Unfourtenetly, I have never sold,installed or shipped(other than cut only jobs for some of the production sharing guys) anything that wasnt finished, so I had to figure it out!!!
Mike Murray
Versatile Cabinet & Solid Surface
mike@versatilecabinet.com
http://www.versatilecabinet.com

Wally Schneeberger
Guru Member
Posts: 473
Joined: Tue, May 17 2005, 1:55PM

Re: Cabinet Finish

Postby Wally Schneeberger » Mon, Sep 14 2009, 6:51PM

Damon Nabors wrote:
I use the woodsong 2 as well and that is a wiping stain. You generally don't want to let the pigments sit ontop of the wood. Not to say I haven't fogged it on before to blend some areas.

Woodsong 2 comes in both -- a wiping stain or a Spray Stain -- They are different formulas.
Image

User avatar
Gary Puckett
Wizard Member
Posts: 1324
Joined: Mon, May 19 2008, 1:39PM
Company Name: The Woodworkery
Location: Saint Charles, Missouri
Contact:

Re: Cabinet Finish

Postby Gary Puckett » Mon, Sep 14 2009, 7:58PM

Kerry Fullington wrote:Looks good Wally,

I need to try some of the ML Campbell products. They aren't readily available here so I have never used them.

Damon,

I am giving the clear stain base a try today on some sample pieces. I am going to see if I like it better than the wash coat.

Kerry


Kerry,

What was the out come of the clear base, did you have any luck?

Gary
HP Pavilion
Vista home Premium 64bit S. pack 2
AMD Phenom-X4
9850 Quad-Core Processor
6.0GB/Go Memory
1 TB/To Hard Drive
Nividia GeForce 9800 GT

User avatar
Kerry Fullington
Wizard Member
Posts: 4566
Joined: Mon, May 09 2005, 7:33PM
Company Name: ProSource of Amarillo
Country: UNITED STATES
Location: Amarillo, TX

Re: Cabinet Finish

Postby Kerry Fullington » Tue, Sep 15 2009, 6:39AM

Gary,

I will have to try another product. The only clear base here in town was a Sherwin Williams product and it completely sealed the wood. The plywood I put it on would accept a little stain but the maple hardwood would not take any. It was like using a wash coat with too much finish in it. Even with sanding it wouldn't take any stain. I am guessing there is a difference in the product. The ML Campbell is an industrial finish not a consumer product. I will try the Gemini clear base when I can get some.

Kerry

User avatar
Gary Puckett
Wizard Member
Posts: 1324
Joined: Mon, May 19 2008, 1:39PM
Company Name: The Woodworkery
Location: Saint Charles, Missouri
Contact:

Re: Cabinet Finish

Postby Gary Puckett » Tue, Sep 15 2009, 6:47AM

I was talking to the rep in my area for MLC and he recommends putting on a stain base first, then seal it with a sealer, then shade with a toner to get the final result.

His thoughts on the wash coat is that they are OK but the color of the stain you put on will be lighter.

Gary
HP Pavilion
Vista home Premium 64bit S. pack 2
AMD Phenom-X4
9850 Quad-Core Processor
6.0GB/Go Memory
1 TB/To Hard Drive
Nividia GeForce 9800 GT

User avatar
Kerry Fullington
Wizard Member
Posts: 4566
Joined: Mon, May 09 2005, 7:33PM
Company Name: ProSource of Amarillo
Country: UNITED STATES
Location: Amarillo, TX

Re: Cabinet Finish

Postby Kerry Fullington » Tue, Sep 15 2009, 7:26AM

Gary,

Don't forget that if you use a wash coat you must sand everything again. this removes the coat from the tight grain and just leaves it in the open grain that will cause the blotching.

I am going to try the clear base coat again using a different product. I have to find some place to get the ML Campbell products if the Gemini doesn't work.

If the trend would turn back to Oak I wouldn't have to worry about it.

Kerry

User avatar
Gary Puckett
Wizard Member
Posts: 1324
Joined: Mon, May 19 2008, 1:39PM
Company Name: The Woodworkery
Location: Saint Charles, Missouri
Contact:

Re: Cabinet Finish

Postby Gary Puckett » Tue, Sep 15 2009, 7:40AM

Oak is great for stainning, I also hear that Alder is good, I have never used Alder before. 90% of the people in my area are against Oak.

Gary
HP Pavilion
Vista home Premium 64bit S. pack 2
AMD Phenom-X4
9850 Quad-Core Processor
6.0GB/Go Memory
1 TB/To Hard Drive
Nividia GeForce 9800 GT


Return to “Lounge”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests