After the bugs are fixed in V6

[Kerry Fullington]

Neville,

We're sort of in the same boat. I have found work arounds for many of the things eCabinets doesn't do but it would be nice to have most everything in one program.
I think Version 6 was a very big job to get the member store out of the software. I think once 6 is running smooth it will be time for some improved features.

I sure hope you are wrong about the sleek simplistic European look. I would have to quit.

Kerry

[Gary Campbell]

Kerry...
I always thought that if God wanted us to have plastic wrapped MDF doors, he would have given us plastic wrapped MDF trees. (sorry Neville)

Gary Puckett...
Yes, almost cleared up. You did not mention if you use CNC equipment or conventional shop equipment like I do to build your 5 piece doors.

[Ray Jorgensen]

(((( From discussions with different Ecabinet and Thermwood owners I don't know any who use the dovetail drawer or make 5 piece doors on the Thermwood. ))))

I make hundreds of each every year.

Would I like capabilities to have mid rails and stiles? Yes. But I can work around - within - the software and get these now. Not the easiest but it works.

I've only done a few MDF doors and it seems to me that any profile can be done. If I remember right I applied it to a door and it showed. I don't understand, but like I said I haven't done but a few MDF doors.

I have not tried to show the MDF on a cabinet. If I have something that can't be displayed, I do a sketch and it has worked well.

Maybe instead of building a door program from scratch, a partnership could be established somehow?

[Ray Jorgensen]

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{I sure hope you are wrong about the sleek simplistic European look. I would have to quit.

Kerry}}}}}}}}

I'm with you - I have 3 jobs right now that are replacing that look. Here in Midwest USA it was in the 50's and 60's.

[Gary Puckett]

Kerry...
I always thought that if God wanted us to have plastic wrapped MDF doors, he would have given us plastic wrapped MDF trees. (sorry Neville)

Gary Puckett...
Yes, almost cleared up. You did not mention if you use CNC equipment or conventional shop equipment like I do to build your 5 piece doors.

Gary

Yes I use conventional shop equipment, plus buy my doors out through Walzcraft. IT would be nice to have some of their doors in the door library

[Forrest Chapman]

Neville,
There are plenty of people here in the states that do only euro style and I myself have cut thousands of mdf doors on my machine along with mantels, columns, radius and custom trim, wainscot, and whatever else you can think of. I have to use another piece of software (not panelmatrix, another cabinet software) which doesn't give me the full screen to machine ability once the design is done in ecabs. I have ask repeatedly for better capabilities and I know of a few machines that were sold on the notion of ecabs moving in the direction of production mdf. And so we wait.

As far as the feature bogging the software down, that I know of most of the tooling parameters will be at the controller. All we need is the ability to load multiple tools in the profile area as a set with names for each tool that go out to the machine. At the machine you will control tool direction, speed and number of passes of which it already does most of those things.

Kerry,
I've been told before that the mdf feature was not a conflict of interest with panelmatrix and that development would go on. It would be interesting to hear someone in the know from Thermwood add something to this post.

I am seeing a large resurgence of painted kitchens on the cheap with the economy down. I think this trend will continue to grow.

So Thermwood, how about it?

Forrest

[Neville Bastian]

Hey Gary, Well God did give us trees that give us oil ... Tea Tree oil. They can make diesel out of Jatropha trees some 1900 litres per year if irrigated (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jatropha_curcas) that's the best I can do. I guess they could make plastic out of this? Sorry for being a smart arse. I'm only mucking around.
I am not knocking what you guys do with timber doors and to be honest I am jealous on what you pay for them but apart from that my part of the world doesn't want the solid timber look even if they do have money. We seem to be in the rip it out mode here where if its 10 or 15 year old kitchen lets rip it out.

Yes Forrest it is a bit frustrating that you have a powerful tool but ultimately we are at the mercy of what the programmers will see as beneficial. It is still an big improvement over the non ecabinet route which have software guys not that interested taking full advantage of your hardware. Not taking an interest in conflicts that may arise. I think if Thermwood can keep throwing resources at Ecabinets its bound to pay up with increased sales if guys can do more with less staff.

Ray its good you are using the 5 piece door on your Thermwood. I have tried this on a Masterwood pod machine with jigs and could not achieve the volume that a couple of spindle moulders achieve. I have seen the Osrud door machine centre at trade shows and at Jeremy's workshop in GA and that averaged out to 20 minutes a door I think? The best I could get was 60 minutes on a non Thermwood. What have you got your times down to?

I guess we are behind the times in OZ and Europe. Maybe I will making mostly timber door kitchens yet. Just as well we have the US brothers to show us how to do things.
Regards

Neville

[Ray Jorgensen]

I'll cycle a door every 10 - 12 min. If I really pay attention and am organized. I don't dought that a couple of dedicated machines with good people could run them faster, but I have the machine and tooling so I make them.

[Kerry Fullington]

Forrest,

I think you are referring to this quote from Ken in THIS THREAD

As for doors and hardware; we will continue to allow the current designs and the hardware that we currently offer with 3D images, you will just not be able to order it. We hope to add a beefed up MDF door package which should give you pretty much anything else you might want.

I do feel that when V6 is running as it should there will be a focus on new and improved features.

Kerry

[Mark McCallum]

I am so sick of poly doors.
Just to give you guys an insight into our local market, for the last ten years polyurethane and vacuum rules supreme.
I refuse to sell vacuum doors , but many of the guys do.
15 years ago we couldn't sell enough timber country V groove with capping and lead lights. Sydney was in love with a style or look loosely termed the federation look. Recycled timber was real popular and for people who couldn't afford that we had the country Baltic look where you take pristine pine doors and age them with stain, make indentations and apply some black Japan. There was still a lot of laminate top, melamine door, kitchens being made. As well as a healthy share of normal everyday timber, Plus a few poly ones

Then it turned. Somehow almost overnight polyurethane and vacuum became most popular and affordable. Everyone wanted it. No one hardly wanted timber.
Its now totally rare to put a laminate kitchen into anything but a rental.
Ten years ago poly groove doors were more popular as we transitioned away from timber. Now its more plain.

I love timber doors, I have a timber kitchen myself, I make good money out of timber, everyone should have a timber kitchen.


But bloody Sydney's in love with PLAIN. The plainer the better
.
A typical quote goes something like this

What type of kitchen do you want? How about a nice Tasmanian oak or lovely Jarrah timber kitchen or perhaps, you would like something plain?
Okay.. something plain
Would you like a 5mm radius or a bevel on that?
Can we have a radius?
Please, Please, Please, can I put just a little 20mm splay on it to jazz it up a little.
Nooooooo we like the rad and can it be smaller, perhaps 3 mm?
Oh. okay, Noooooo problem.
What colour would you like?
A whitish colour the plainer the better.
How about a bronze metallic colour or perhaps a steel grey?.
Your joking aren't you? Do you want this job or not?
Ha Ha. Yeah. just being funny. Heres a paint Brochure, Dulux, Directions in white.
Yeah that's more like what we're looking for.
Here darling, this is a nice colour. Oh yes, hogs bristle quarter strength. Nice Colour. (Its not a colour, it almost white)
Hogs Quarter it is.
We don't want gloss, can we have something else, something that's not soooo in your face?
(Groan, under breath),Yeah sure, heres three samples 30 Percent satin , 60 Percent satin, or 90 Percent satin, (I'm sick of satin too).
How about a granite top? Hard, durable, and lasting, Comes with swirls and character from the past. Something with a million year story, each slab a one off and as unique as mother nature can make it,..............
Does it come in white? That's the dark stuff isn't it? That's the spotty stuff isn't it? Doesn't it stain? What else can we have?
How about this boring crushed up reconstituted stone stuff.
Oh yeah! that's really nice. Beautiful. Not to overpowering. matches in nicely. We love it! Mwwuuh Mwuuh Mwuuh
.......................We don't want handles. Handles make a kitchen look too busy, don't you think?
How about these nice squarish ones or these rounded bar ones?
Nooooo we want shark nose profile doors, no handles, the plainer the better.
Shark nose it is.
What colour do you want your glass splashbacks?
Something plain, can we have that in a whitish colour as well.
Sure can!
At the end of the choosing process they ask
Do you think we have chosen something that will look nice?
Ohhhh Yeah! You chose a nice modern look. A nice and clean look. Something that wont date or go out of style ((under breath) Its just going to look like the other 85 percent of kitchens we have been doing for the last ten years(but don't worry about that, as long as your happy!))
AND THATS......... why I am so sick of poly!
As you walk out the door, you stop and ask. By the way what colour are you going to paint the walls?
SOME THING PLAIN!

I am only slightly joking.
Of the poly kitchens more than 50% of them are plain doors the rest do have some sort of groove. curved head. various profile grooves, square head or flat panel.

When I look at American kitchen sites its nice to see all the ornate timber work.
We can only wish for people willing to spend on some genuine woodwork.
These days, poly, soft closers, and reconstituted stone go into your everyday mum and dad homes to your million dollar homes and apartments. There's not too much difference between them
You might think I am joking but seriously I have been waiting for the last 7 or so years for it to change.
Maybe this year will see some return of timber.

But That's why a MDF door designer would be an asset for the guys with a Thermwood in our local market

Sorry to ramble and get of topic

[Georgi Baltov]

You Aussies, isolated down there from the rest of the world. Let it out my friend, let it all out. ( just messing with you)

I love the modern look kitchens, with modern hardware and appliances. It's the way it goes. 30-20 years ago it was one way now it's different. Reconstituted is a trend we are all aiming for, aren't we. It's environment friendly, green technology. Let's say people save on door complexity but they spend on hardware and functionality.Not that having no handles is functional but if you put the Blum servo drive drawers you get something to show off in front of your friends.

I agree with one thing though - I hate vinyl doors as well. I really hate them. Much worse than laminated doors. In fact they are terrible. I won't even put them on my garage tool cabinet.

That said, peace out dudes and dudettes.

[Gary Campbell]

Nevile....
Sorry for the shot. One must follow the market or be left behind. No more plastic shots fired by me across the pond.

Gary... Thanks for the clarification. Sorry for the persistance, but the more I get into the software the more evident it is that there are 3 sets of features in eCabs.
1) Its rendering abilities that are a strong sales aid.
2) Its reporting abilities that seem invaluable to the non CNC shop.
3) Its ability to export to CNC.

Each set of features has its own user base and there is of course overlap, but it does seem to me that many of the features that I use to take to CNC are lacking the full set of features that have been placed in the other 2 sections. This is, I am sure, due to following the majority of the user base, which do not have CNC capability. The designers also have built in a "contradiction of terms" of sorts, with these features.

What I mean by this is that there are some features included that would be only used by mega production shops such as puzzle joints and nest cut face frames. Then on the other hand there are little or no features that would enable a small shop to produce a face frame cabinet using a combination of conventional and CNC equipment. There seems to be little or no support for machining on parts other than the 5 main carcass pieces. There is little or no support for levelers, hanging brackets, closet parts or metal draw sides, all of which are asked for by our wholesale customers.

I dont believe that the development team has done anything other than to follow the wishes of the user base, which is a good thing. The vast majority are non CNC based shops and their input would, of course, be directed to features other than CNC. I also believe that in doing that, they may have strayed from Mr. Susnjara's original idea of bringing CNC to the masses. I believe that in order to do that, a non CNC based shop would need to see that they could have most all the features they require to be competitive in their market and have that at a price that was affordable. They would also need assurance that they would be flexible to move to other methods as the market changed. And in some cases, they may even need to see their competitors doing it to be convinced. Once word gets out that even small shops will have difficulty surviving without CNC is when we hear the explosion of CNC across this country. And what time better than the present? Someone needs to lead this. Who better than those that already have all the tools at their disposal?

All of this comes at a price. As a business man, albeit small, I would be foolish to add features that had a cost without an additional charge. I wouldn't expect eCabs to add these, supply them to all users as in the past, and not have a charge for that feature. I would propose a pay to play plan. One level could be used as a sales tool with layouts and renderings. A second includes LDE, reports and Cutlist etc. exports. Another could have nesting and CNC export. Items like the door editor, MDF door design (both from above posts), furniture components, closets or any other specialized subsets could be added as modules for an appropriate fee. This hopefully would lower the 2nd tier licensing fees that Thermwood pays for user licenses. A moderate fee structure could both ensure the longevity of the software and raise the quality of the enduser. In other words, a fee would cause those that rarely use it to possibly reconsider. This would lower operating costs and possibly shift funds to feature development, which should increase the user base.

Before I jump into my concrete bunker to avoid the firestorm of flames coming at me for suggesting that your favorite free software is no longer free, please remember: If it sounds to good to be true, it isnt. Even if it is, it may not be forever. ANd remember that compared to the "unmentioned high end software packages", eCabs files cut better and faster. This is using the ShopBot Link and sending to an entry level machine. I can only imagine how well it works on a full featured Thermwood Cabinet Shop machine.

It appears that version 6 has added some editing capabilities that will be received well by the CNC crowd. I for one hope that the CNC user base uses their voice in the future. I apologize for the length of the post, and to those that object, the content.

[Neville Bastian]

Hi Gary, Quick open the bunker door. Let me in.
I also think there should be a fee for certain area access that helps pay for the development of the program. The logic of Ken was to get people hooked on Ecabinets and if they were looking at buying a cnc they would be $1000's of dollars in front by going with Thermwood.
I think the actuality has been the bigger players who already have a few cnc's and looking to add a Thermwood see it easier to buy a post processor to talk to the Thermwood than retrain staff. The other area I found when I have been talking to cnc operators who are very familiar with cad packages is they really don't want their boss to go with Ecabinets because they loose their lofty status. They know all the workarounds and almost macro programming to make the program sing. Go Ecabinets and their boss could get another person trained to do their job within a few weeks.
Then you have new kids in town who are turned off with the learning curve that Ecabinets seems to have compared to some of the other Cad programs that trade magazines have brainwashed tradesman to believe is the ants pants. In reality Ecabinets does walk over most programs in the detail area as its written inside out. That is the other software was written for drawing and costing with cutlists for panel saws. The need for exact sizing wasn't really there. They were dragged into reality 10 t0 15 years ago and struggled with it. I think it is good now but it is still not easy sailing.
If I was in Kens place I would have a few programmers working at pleasing the new users and matching the simple way to create a kitchen, the costing side and optimisation for materials that the other packages have. Then have the other programmers meeting the Thermwood owners needs such as mine advanced MDF door profiling and others job costing etc. The upgrade cost should be discounted for Thermwood owners compared to the other design packages support. Then the radical thing would be creating post processors like the shopbot for other the other major CNC operators. Get them to pay the industry standard cost per year which is 3 times what Thermwood users pay for example. Then offer this back as a deposit on a future Thermwood purchase.
Keeping the non CNC features of Ecabinets free will bring more users in. The money generated each year for Thermwood & non Thermwood owners should help fast track power features.
Quick, duck. Here comes a opposite view post.

Regards

Neville

[Kenneth Rychlik]

On the "PAY TO PLAY" issue, I have a few thoughts.

First if someone purchased a thermwood machine, or even the shopbot link with the agreed upon notion that the sofware was and would remain free, that would be unfair to make those folks pay more money for what they knew was free going into it.

There are other folks that have paid for the training with the agreement that their software was free. They have money and time in their learning curve. Again changing to a fee after someone knew it was free going in.

If thermwood would wish to change the system to a pay to play for new people comming in and they knew that up front, that would be more fair.

Also along those lines, if the folks that were invested in one way or another could keep the old version without expiration and have the OPTION to upgrade to a newer version for a fee, I think that would be fair.

Kenneth

[Gary Campbell]

Kenneth...
Even tho I didnt say it, I would assume that eCabs would be free to a Thermwood owner. Due to a much lesser outlay, possibly reduced price for Link users.

You need to forget "fair" as that would be a personal opinion of what you perceive is fair. Let me ask it this way.

If the only 2 choices are: 1) Thermwood no longer chooses to produce and support eCabs due to rising costs.
2) There is a modest user fee that helps them recover costs and allows program to continue.
Now pick one.

I have another. 1) Reasonable fee to continue use of our favorite, "used to be free" software.
2) Buy a $20K+ replacement and pay $1K+ per year to maintain.
3) Hand draw parts on a non parametric system that adds hundreds of hours per year to your sales costs.
Pick one again

Please dont get me wrong. I really like the idea that we have access to an application that is as powerful as eCabs at no cost. But you need to remember, that is only no cost to US. As costs increase and revenues decrease, something has to suffer. Personally, I think that having something that is very useful and beneficial to my business and expecting it to be provided free forever because it was "free" once, is not fair. But that's just my opinion and I could be wrong.