An Active Forum is a Strong Forum

[Mark McCallum]

Just curious
Lately we are having some flops.
Cabinets or assemblies are fine up to a certain point then, information drops off or out of the file.
Sometimes its on a new design, some times its on single cupboards and other times its on assemblies, sometimes it seems to be on month or older file thats fine and you tweak it a little and bang, suddenly you are working on a dead job and you have saved over the good one.
Its always hits hardest on the most time consuming jobs where you have put in a few hours of designing.

We have things like part editor cuts just disappear.
Hole patterns disappear.
Save a job its fine, reopen it, its lost information.
Sometimes they appear to be there, Write a twd and send them to the machine and they are gone.
If you aren't babying every job. They get cut, which is a waste of time.
Our graphic drivers as far as i know are up to date.

I have wondered if we try and do too much with our cabinets and extend or push them to far.
How ever, I do see other very nice examples of complex work.
A lot of the time there aren't any problems.
Basic boxes through the batch area generally don't have problems, its just the tweak that seems to set it off, but its random.
But sometimes after a lot of work , perhaps a couple of hours, things go or disappear, you then start working backwards to try and identify the problem, often wasting more time, when really its just better to trash the job and start again.


I know Clint and the team are always there to help and back us up and provide great service that I am greatly in awe of.

However they can't fix problems if we cant provide examples of what creates the problems.

Early on in ecabs development the forum was acting as a good detective problem solving arena where the hive mind would respond with various observations and problems would be pinned down and solutions quickly applied.
I'm not sure if people are tiring of reporting or if less people are using ecabs and the forum, or if its just us?. that is having these things happen to.

But anyway, perhaps I am stepping over the line, just a little appeal to all the forum members to keep active, post your glitches with any observations and please respond with any observations or tips to others posts.
Together is the best, easiest and quickest way of solving problems.


What prompted this little burst
An assembly from before Christmas that the customer wants to height change.
Go to tweak it,..... Dead
By that I mean, try and optimise it or sheet layout and I get a error message.
What caused it? Dunno.
Should have been be a pretty simple job, except for the pigeon holes, partitions for drawers and sorting the hinges around the pigeon holes.

But maybe you guys can help find the cause.


This is a message Ive not seen before. Don't know what caused it of course, but posting because the hive mind is stronger

lisa.jpg (12.05 KiB) Viewed 18074 times

lisa.esa

(7.3 MiB) Downloaded 789 times

Any help appreciated.
Thanks
Mark

[Donald Thomson]

Mark,

I've had these gremlins sneak into jobs on many occasions. I tweak a cabinet and all of a sudden materials are no linger displayed like they should be. I just get the yellow with text in it for a material I've been using for years. I also start getting constraint problems that just all of a sudden creep into a project.

Like you, I don't have a clue where these problems are coming from and what was done to cause them to happen. Also like you, I find i quicker to trash the job and start over. I get error dialogs that mean absolutely nothing to an end user. I've reported a most of these to Thermwood. I know the guys at Thermwood are working hard on eCabs. But maybe we are pushing it to hard? Don't know.

[Donald Thomson]

Mark,

Here's a good example of those gremlins slipping in when you can't recall anything you did to make it happen. I was performing a nest for a job and this popped up out of nowhere. The message doesn't mean anything and doesn't provide any kind of a path to try and diagnose the problem. When I go into cabinet editor, it does not tell me which drawer is Dbx 2 so I have no idea which drawer box to even troubleshoot. Nesting arbitrarily assigns Dbx #'s but these don't carry back into cabinet editor anywhere, so it's really tough to try and figure out what is wrong and where the problem resides.

I just hope I don't have to delete the cabinet and start designing it over again, wasting a TON of time. It's a complicated cabinet to redo.

Sent this one to Thermwood to see if they can help me out.

[Mark McCallum]

Hi Donald.
Thats good
I think posting the messages helps.
Also posting the cabinet here if you don't mind sharing the design. (Some cabinets can be special and have hours of design put into them so I can fully understand not wanting to)
If others are then interested in testing the unit and reporting their results, It just gives the programmers a place to start at.
For example the job I posted has drawers behind doors.
Yours has drawers.
More messages, =more data, = more clues, = more bugs squashed.
It just takes extra time, but we have to do it.

Personally, I don't like tying the guys, (probably Clint) up in the office at thermwood fixing random stuff, they fix it or we fix it it just takes time away from everyone.
I can't tell at my end if its a simple (for a programmer) changing of a few lines or 4 hours of code rewrite to get it to work.
For a simple fix I'd send it in, but thats putting the job on hold, and really , I just want it done.

Bringing all the error messages together starts to give them clues where to start.
I was getting tired of reporting glitches because to write bug posts and reports takes time.

But then I reasoned if no one reports, nothing gets tracked down and we cycle downwards and end up using it as basic box building software instead of the great software it is.

A complicated job being cut on the machine, all the fancy little cutouts, dado positions, KD fittings, flip ops and angles for me is awe inspiring and a thing of beauty.
Its like magic, my own little robot builder smashing out complicated joinery.

Thanks
Mark

[Donald Thomson]

Here's the cabinet that started throwing the unknown error. It is a cabinet with drawers and pull out trays behind doors, just like you mentioned. It is a blind corner cabinet.

[Will Williamson]

When I am in the Design phase, I will usually just tough it out, redraw, redo,
what ever it takes. Change software if necessary.
Since I no longer try to import dxf files into control nesting
But once, I am into production, and run into issues, I go straight to programming, for help.
I was thinking that ecabinets had advanced so much in the last 16 years,
that I probably, could use ,a refresher course, in Ecabinets
Most of my issues, are my own fault, after sitting there for hours and not saving regularly
Did you ever notice most of these issues occur at the end of the day when normal people go home
And We just sit there and fight on for 3 or 4 more hours
Daniel, told me one time, 8 hours is enough for any designer, programmer, cnc operator and after 10 hour,
you will be lucky, if you can get the machine to start.

[Stuart Douglas]

After working through similar problems in eCabS, I too can attest to the absolutely USELESS error messages. If the dialog told me what damn rabbit to chase, then I would gladly do it. As others had stated, It's usually operator error, and all you need is a clue about which part or operation or constraint was gumming up the works. I often lose parts when I go to write code, after adjusting for the "actual" material thickness.

I am still learning new tricks, even after using the software for a number of years - just last week I noticed a greyed out text in the right click menu for doors and fronts to LOCK HEIGHT. Wish I knew (remembered?) about that before I expanded my seed library to have 2 folders full of clones at different heights.

[Mark McCallum]

Hi Donald
I get the same error message when nesting your unit.
When I remove part editor cuts from the entire cabinet it nests.

[Mark McCallum]

(When I am in the Design phase, I will usually just tough it out, redraw, redo,
what ever it takes. Change software if necessary.)

Sounds pretty much what I do

(Since I no longer try to import dxf files into control nesting.)

I still do import DXF's.
Yes, they can and do give problems.
but 80% of the time, I can get it to work, It is a learning thing in where I got to a point where you start to work out whats the best way to do a job.
I mess with settings in the export from the drawing package and change the import options in ecabs.
removing duplicate entities is also a great tool and add closed contour to part seems to help some times.
I also go around and re trim two entities for all the joins
But, yes if its too complicated , like writing or something full of curves, I'd use some thing else.
This is not an ecabs only issue. Its a Cad file issue that every program seems to have.
Importing and exporting files from other programs is always a complicated area.

(But once, I am into production, and run into issues, I go straight to programming, for help).

Yes, again I am a bit the same, I want to try and salvage what I have. You invest hours into getting it to the machine, already to go. then a slowdown.
Often its just me overlooking something. The guys have always got us up and running though
For us, we are in an opposite time zone which can slow things down a bit sometimes.


(I was thinking that ecabinets had advanced so much in the last 16 years,
that I probably, could use, a refresher course, in Ecabinets)
Could we please! I would so like to be able to do that!, but the time, the money.......................

(Most of my issues, are my own fault, after sitting there for hours and not saving regularly
Did you ever notice most of these issues occur at the end of the day when normal people go home
And We just sit there and fight on for 3 or 4 more hours)

Ha Ha . Donald, you sound so like my woodworking brother, From what I can infer, Its generally the smaller custom joiners that use this operating technique.
The Ill keep working until my eyes shut and the head hits the keyboard system.

(Daniel, told me one time, 8 hours is enough for any designer, programmer, cnc operator and after 10 hour,
you will be lucky, if you can get the machine to start.)

Sounds like he knows what he is talking about, a true professional

Clint, poor fellow has drawn the short straw, and got me. (Thanks Clint) ......... Just waiting to be banned.

[Donald Thomson]

Hi Donald
I get the same error message when nesting your unit.
When I remove part editor cuts from the entire cabinet it nests.

Clint sent me an email saying the top drawer behind the doors is messed up. One of those gremlins. I haven't touched that drawer since I designed the cabinet 2 months ago. Don't know why it all of a sudden lost its brains.....

He said to delete it and put it back in. That's the kind of stuff this thread is all about. Issues like this popping up for no apparent reason. Delete and re-add the part, etc. Why is it having these problems in the first place? Sounds like cabinet data is getting corrupted either saving it or loading it. I know it's nearly impossible to find from a programming standpoint. I was a programmer for 18 years. Started with jumper cables, to mainframe punchcards, Unix, Windows from 1.0 to XP before I finally said I'd had enough in 2000.

[Mark McCallum]

Hi Stuart

(After working through similar problems in eCabS, I too can attest to the absolutely USELESS error messages. If the dialog told me what damn rabbit to chase, then I would gladly do it. As others had stated, It's usually operator error, and all you need is a clue about which part or operation or constraint was gumming up the works.)

I hear what you are saying, but don't be shy, please post those files, post the error messages, tell us what you were doing to gum it up.
These are the things that happen to me and like you was just passing over them.
If we don't post them they can't fix them and different aproaches from other users will help find causes.

As for more detailed messages, I don't know if it would help me/us, It probably points the programers to an area of code that throws the message, All we can we do is work around it until we find what ticks it off, So thats why its good to post the instance, If we get 4 or 5 instances of the same glitch, we can see if its more than a one off situation, Its not like we can go in and fix the code, we just want to make stuff, numbers and programing is the programmers job,
Like I said earlier, they will fix it if we can narrow it down to what causes it.
So the more input the better.

("I often lose parts when I go to write code, after adjusting for the "actual" material thickness.")

That is a very useful observation, I am always changing materials, Ill try and watch out for that.

(I am still learning new tricks, even after using the software for a number of years - just last week I noticed a greyed out text in the right click menu for doors and fronts to LOCK HEIGHT. Wish I knew (remembered?) about that before I expanded my seed library to have 2 folders full of clones at different heights.)

Yes I think the program is huge, fantastic and full of tricks.

(Code for,It needs to be blown up and put back together again with a prettier more modern user friendly interface, but that realistically aint ever gonna happen)

Disclaimer, All opinions and ideas expressed are of a purely personal nature and no insider knowledge is claimed, inferred or implied

I don't know what that feature does either and will have to have a look at it.
I find I am semi well versed in some areas and totally lacking in others.
Even the areas I consider myself to be okay in I am still finding areas where technique improvements help save me time.
It has so many strong manufacturing areas and features, its awesome, Its the little glitches that we are focusing on that take away from the big pretty picture.
So post those glitches so it can be better.

[Mark McCallum]

Hi Donald
Cint has saved the bacon again.

Clint sent me an email saying the top drawer behind the doors is messed up. One of those gremlins. I haven't touched that drawer since I designed the cabinet 2 months ago. Don't know why it all of a sudden lost its brains.....

Yes its those things that confuse me as well.
Pull out a locked up finished file and look at it or go to adjust it and sometimes its becomes unstable.

[Stuart Douglas]

Hi Stuart

(After working through similar problems in eCabS, I too can attest to the absolutely USELESS error messages. If the dialog told me... ...but don't be shy, please post those files, post the error messages, tell us what you were doing to gum it up... ...awesome, Its the little glitches that we are focusing on that take away from the big pretty picture.
So post those glitches so it can be better.

Well here is another one...This one popped up while just nesting the job in eCabS on my workstation. It is a large job that I put together yesterday with seeds that are literally years old, but the cabinet in question is one I've used hundreds of times before. The curious thing about this error is that it references cabinet 17, which is an UPPER cabinet! No drawers! Soooo....what do I do with that?! I'll attach the cabinet but I'm not sure it will actually help.

I'll be honest, I've been very pleased with the functionality of this piece of "free" software. It works great about 98% of the time. That said I think we are going to be moving to CV. Just as soon as I can learn it.

[Stuart Douglas]

sry guys guess i shrank those images too far to meet the attachment size parameters The cabinet file should still be good!

[Kerry Fullington]

Stuart,

Your cabinet nests fine here by itself.

Many times the really weird stuff will go away once you save the job and shut down the computer.
Don't just re-start, shut down and re-open everything.