Next Release Question

[Donald Thomson]

This would truly be a very useful feature in eCabs. My vote is to move it to the top of the list of new/improved features for the next release.

The latest release of eCabs is VERY fast and a real pleasure to use. My productivity has gone up ten-fold. Very few crashes - compared to previous versions, and I have yet to have a HOOPS error.

Thanks TWD programmers.

[Gary Campbell]

Josh...
I agree with all except "....a part editor hole properly constrained.." to me, and I am sure that you are not too far away on this one, proper constraint would require allowing the hole(s) to be constrained to the joinery as to allow them to move with the panel/dado, etc. I bet that I am not the only one that has placed/constrained pilot holes from either side of the panel and then resized the cabinets. This feature,or lack of feature, coupled with the inability to "lock" the shelf/opening for a base drawer are 2 of my pet peeves.

We traditionally have been asked for 12 holes per base side panel. The time to place and constrain these holes approaches cutting time. On a resize, the design time exceeds cutting time. When you cut sheets for a flat rate, all redesign time is an irritation. Design time that exceeds cutting time is unnacceptable.

I assume that TWD machines have a lower sheet cycle time than I do on my ShopBot. I also assume higher costs when not cutting. Dont know how you guys d it. Hats off to you.

[Josh Rayburn]

Hi Gary,
You're right, to constrain to edges is much different than constraining to a dado's edge, (which is not possible anymore) for example - a partition might create the need to constrain the holes in the top or deck when the partition is off center. If it's centered that is a simple formula entered into the 'edit' box for the constraint, for example (W/2). But in an off-center partition, those holes can be constrained to the edges of the top and deck and then to each other vertically with formulas and horizontally for alignment, thus creating only one horizontal constraint that needs to be "moved" or edited if this situation occurs, it's not nearly as bad.

The larger problem that I encounter on a regular basis is that any change to a base cabinet with a toekick notch seems to vomit out all of my carefully placed constraints even if it's just a change in the width of the cabinet. I haven't narrowed that one down yet to the point where I can report the specifics to have it fixed....

In repetitive scenarios with same size and placement, it has proved better to make a dxf overlay and drill the holes 'manually' with the part editor since the geometry is so much easier to place and / or move in a cad program. I also like being reassured by taking a quick measurement to confirm that my holes are where I want them to be. Overall it is often that these pilot hole jobs take longer to program than to cut but that all has to be considered in the programming estimate.

By the way, I am in complete agreement with your point on locking openings. That would also be a very useful feature to have.
jnr

[Josh Rayburn]

So, TWD: this post has been up for a little bit, what do you all think?
Is it remotely possible to do? If so, how much beer and pizza will it take? (there is no pizza emoticon)

[alainalbert]

i would like to see a hybrid dado like this. i call it the interrupted dado with option for pilot holes.

Jason, we've talked about this before and i can see that i'm not the only one who would like this. it wouldn't be very hard to do and it would set you apart from all your competitors. just imagine, onsite assembly would become a cinch.

[Josh Rayburn]

Alain,
I'd love to see that too, but I don't want to machine it. That will cut down the life of my tooling on the dado tool and the outline tool significantly. It would also slow sheet times with all that jogging around the outline and with so many additional dado / tenon dado operations.
It's a beautiful joint, no doubt - but what is the benefit to having the tenons split like that versus a long tenon that also incorporates pilot holes right through it at specified intervals?
jnr

[Kerry Fullington]

Josh,

the benefit comes from more "meat" to run a screw into and for closets the ability to use RTA fittings in unison with the alignment ease of the blind dado.

I think it would be a fantastic joint.

[Josh Rayburn]

Kerry,
RTA fittings in addition to blind dado would be cool, I hadn't thought of that. Though I love the idea (and picture) of the staggered joint, don't get me wrong - I've been successfully running screws right through the tenons for years and have never had a problem, I guess the real issue for me is that the slowdown in machining time and cutter life is not worth the reward.
jnr

[JohnLashuay]

Josh and Kerry, Here is a link to a previous thread on the RTA combined with a dado topic: http://thermwood.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11168&p=60318&hilit=rta+blind+dado&sid=0bff5e33505d7f99e17e1eac55b6138c&sid=0bff5e33505d7f99e17e1eac55b6138c#p60318

I am hoping that this idea can be revived as I see that it was attempted. I see the great possibilities with combining the mechanical and traditional methods of assembly that could help the process as one would need less clamps. I understand the barbed dado is designed for that reason, but I can't see that working with melamine. So this idea of pilot holes/ rta combined with dados is a great potential that I hope can be implemented into the software in the near future.

-John

[Gary Campbell]

Sorry Guys...
If you look at the picture that Alain posted as an example, you arte looking at the very reason the programmers dont allow the Rafix/KDA option and dado to co-exist. Should it be allowed and used for pilot holes, then no problem. All that used it (like myself) would love it. However, should someone actually select the Rafix hole pattern, it would be impossible to assemble. The blind dado insertion requires a movement that is perpendicular to that of the Rafix, and there is no way to perform an insertion with horizontal and vertical motion at the same time.

That said, there is no real reason that it wouldnt work with pilot holes, pocket screw slots and dowel bores. I am sure there are more. Can we as CNC owners and cabinetmakers be entrusted with this power?

Question for Alian.... why do you wish to stop the tenon in the center of the panel for the screw? We have put in thousands of screws into blind dado joints with little or no problem. In fact, the screw helps make sure that the opposite side stays nice and tight as it wedges between the tenon and mortise dado. IMHO, the interuption would increase machining time and decrease bit life. I prefer to keep the bits moving.

[Josh Rayburn]

Hi Gary,
You can get Rafix connectors without the ridge so they can be assembled without pushing them down over the stud, they can just be pushed in straight. Hafele sells them as "with ridge" and "without ridge" for this purpose. I agree with you on the machining and cutter life issues as I stated above.
jnr

[Kerry Fullington]

Gary,

The reason for splitting or tabbing the blind dado is for better holding power for the screw without having to use a very long screw and for the RTA fastener in closet applications.
As a customer in production sharing I will care more about getting the joint I want than I will about tool life and machining time. The folks machining the parts would just have to charge accordingly.
For now, where I can such as decks I may use a 100% thickness on my dadoes so I have something to screw to.
Kerry

[JohnLashuay]

I agree that the tool life will be shortened and the machine time will be longer, but it would be great to have as an option. I understand that for those who are high volume machining facilities this wouldn't be that enticing, but for us that would be great. I can see quite a few positives for having this as an option. I believe the added cost of the tool life and machine time would be outweighed by the ease of assembly of melamine cabinets and the lessened use of clamps.

I hope that this is on the list for the next release of soon thereafter.

-John

[Gary Campbell]

Josh...
Cool... I LOVE it when I can learn something. I have either missed the "with or without" ridge or have gotten senile and forgot I saw it! Thanks for the info.

John....
100% with you... on all items. I too will sacrifice tool life for enhanced joinery options.

Kerry...
Please understand. As a crusty ol' woodworker, it IS "all about the joinery" for me. I should send you some samples to screw together. You wont hesitate to put a screw into a "blind dado" joint again. Luckily I just learned from Josh that there are Rafix that will work in conjuction with a dado joint. Maybe we should bag up a couple dozen of these Rafix AND a dozen pizzas AND a few "dozen boxes" of a fermented beverage and sent them to the TWD guys for Chrismas?

[Michael S Murray]

I notice no replys from the thm team and I would be interested in there thoughts on this. I personally would love to see a pilot hole locked to the joint.
I cannot think of one improvement that would be higher on my list. BOOKU time saver for me. Plus I would not have to listen to the air drills at the assembly bench run in my shop all day.