Susan corner cab construction

Gene Davis · Post by **Gene Davis** » Fri, Aug 10 2007, 3:01PM

I'm a little stuck trying to think through the best way to do a susan corner basecab, using eCab software. We do all frameless.

I opened the \"standard\" frameless corner base in the software, and looked at the way the box goes together. In the standard file, the squarecut edges of the backs and back diag interfere.

The attached sketch done in Sketchup shows how a susan goes together as furnished by our present RTA carcase maker. In assembly, the top, both ends, and the bevelsawn diag back go together, then the 1/4\" backs slide in, and the cleats, top and bottom, total four, are fastened in place.

I'll bet that the bevelsawn diag part cannot be made on the router. Right?

If not, then what is the best way to construct a susan corner, so that parts can all be CNC cut?

Mark Taylor · Post by **Mark Taylor** » Fri, Aug 10 2007, 7:32PM

Hi Gene...

I'm not a \"frameless\" guy and I haven't looked at the frameless corner cabinet in the program, so there may be better qualified people to answer you question then I. However looking at your drawing I can't see why you couldn't produce those parts in eCabinets.

Regarding your question on the beveled cuts - you can make cuts like that on the router.

The real question begs how often do you need to make that bevel cut (?)

If you only need to make it a few times a week, you're certainly better off cutting the part square and running it through the table saw, shaper or whatever other method one might use to create the necessary cut. If you need it more often, then there are other means of producing it on the router.

A beveled router bit with the correct angle would be the easiest and/or if beveled cuts were common place you might consider an aggregate head with a saw blade.

One of our offerings is a high end product with lock mitre joints between the cabinet side and face frame. Running the joint by hand on the shaper didn't produce a consistent cut that I was satisfied with - so we designed (and cut on the router) a jig to hold the parts on the router table and cut the lock mitre joint with our Thermwood. They're perfect every time!

I guess what I'm trying to say is: don't second guess the machine - it's usually more capable than people give it credit for...however sometimes the need simply doesn't justify the means.

good luck!

Mark

Gene Davis · Post by **Gene Davis** » Fri, Aug 10 2007, 7:42PM

Thanks for the reply, Mark. The after-operation tablesaw cut occurred to me, but I just wasn't sure how to address it in modeling the cabinet.

I'm not sure how eCabs will let me do the model, unless I use the part editor after the fact to get everything right.

I guess I am off to the races, learning more about this software, unless someone comes up with a killer design for a susan corner, that can be modeled and cut straight out of the can.

Mark Taylor · Post by **Mark Taylor** » Fri, Aug 10 2007, 7:55PM

Let me take a look at the frameless cabinet...but I think the corner cabinet settings will set the cabinet parts up to cut to the correct size and then all you have to do it run it through the table saw.

Mark

Mark Taylor · Post by **Mark Taylor** » Fri, Aug 10 2007, 9:08PM

Hey Gene...

Well, I thought with the stretchers it was going to be relatively easy, but the only way to add a vertical stretcher to the back corner area limits it to the width of the corner gap so it's not wide enough to cut your 45° miters.

But as you can see from the illustration attached a display panel board works fine...be sure to associate it to the cabinet so you don't loose it after saving the cabinet. The display panel will cut out square and you'll have to run it through the table saw...but that really shouldn't pose a big problem.

Hope that helps!

Mark

Gene Davis · Post by **Gene Davis** » Fri, Aug 10 2007, 9:14PM

After fooling around with the software and seeing how it addresses the back of a susan corner, it looks as if I have no choice but to bite the bullet and use thick parts.

While the back is three parts, and they are labeled LEFT BACK, CENTER BACK, and RIGHT BACK, they are all addressed in the same spec page of the parametric part dialog.

Thus, there is no way to make the center one thickness, and the L and R parts another thickness.

Looking at the \"standard\" seed cabinet for a frameless susan corner, the backs all meet and interfere at their junctions, but size so that the corner tips match. That all means that it would be an easy secondary whack on the table saw. Set the blade tilt to 22.5 and cut right to the tips.

Problem solved, I guess, but this susan corner will be a heavy one! I wish there was a way to lighten it up and use thinner materials.

Gene Davis · Post by **Gene Davis** » Fri, Aug 10 2007, 9:21PM

Mark, you and I were posting at the same time, I see.

I'll go and work some more at it, to see if I can advance things a little further.

Will the part editor ADD to a part, and if so, can it be used to add the width to both sides as needed for the secondary bevel rip, so as to be able to get that back diag done as a stretcher, with blind tenon joinery? That would be a big assembly aid.

Mark Taylor · Post by **Mark Taylor** » Fri, Aug 10 2007, 9:37PM

No Gene the part editor won't add anything to the width...I think for what you're trying to do the easiest thing is to stick with the 1/4\" back set the inset and add the horizontal stretchers. Then simply add the 3/4\" corner as a display panel and rip the 45° bevels on the table saw.

The downside is that when the machine cuts the back it will also cut that center panel of 1/4\" as well...but it's really a small amount of waste if the cabinet is built as you prefer it to be. (I haven't paid attention to the parts list on the controller - but I assume the 3 backs are all considered on piece on the parts list. If not, you may be able to uncheck it in the parts list of the controller and not cut it).

Mark

DanEpps · Post by **DanEpps** » Sat, Aug 11 2007, 7:27AM

Gene Davis wrote:...the squarecut edges of the backs and back diag interfere...

On corner cabinets, the parts are extended to allow for table saw cutting of miters on these parts but the miters are not shown graphically in the software.

Michael Yeargain · Post by **Michael Yeargain** » Sat, Aug 11 2007, 8:17AM

I use corner cabinets all the time and every one I design in e_cabinets will cut perfect every time if they use the correct angle on the saw.

Dan is correct. The software doesn't actually \"show\" the miter but allows enough material to make it on the saw or as a flip-op on the Thermwood.

And yea they are quite heavy

Gene Davis · Post by **Gene Davis** » Sat, Aug 11 2007, 10:53AM

OK, I see that I cannot do what I want in eCabs, but I'll bet one of you wizards can.

My idea is for the susan corner cab to be built in the way shown in the attached series of screencaps, taken from my Sketchup model.

This model has the top and deck blind tenoned into the sides, and the diag back blind tenoned into the top and deck. Quarter-inch flanker backs slide into full dados, and squarecut stretcher-nailers pocketscrew into place where shown.

Our present supplier of KD cabs has been shipping this model to us for years, and it is strong and light, when compared to one made with 3/4\" backs.

That supplier, however, doesn't cut parts with a Thermwood router, and thus gives us parts with butt joints and a combo of dowel and confirmat screw joinery. We think the M&T will be a nice improvement, and quicker to assemble.

The same design concept is applied to a 24x24 wallcab corner we use, and the 3/4 diag back is prepped with a sequence of 5mm holes at the same vertical centering as the sides, for shelfpins to pick up the adjustable shelves.

We like the relieved-back design, rather than a solid 3/4 back set, because it deals better with wall irregularities at install time.

The 3/4 back with tenoned ends should be able to be CNC cut with squarecut long edges, and as is done with the standard seed corner, edgeripped with 45 bevels on a tablesaw as a secondary shop operation.

Can someone come up with parametric (resizable) models for this in susan base and wallcab corner sizes? I don't have the eCab skills to do so.

Michael S Murray · Post by **Michael S Murray** » Sat, Aug 11 2007, 1:05PM

Hi Gene, I have cut them 10 different ways, I will post what I have settled on. Yes it might be a little heavier, but it has by far fewer parts and only one material,yes you will have to cut the center back on table saw, you will save you more money than the difference in material cost. In fact, all my cabinets are 3/4 every thing, makes it simple, makes it STRONG, makes better use of your material. I can cut most kitchens with dust left over.

Kerry Fullington · Post by **Kerry Fullington** » Sun, Aug 12 2007, 8:50AM

Gene,
You can design this cabinet in eCabinets but you would have to delete the back and replace it with display panels of the appropriate material and use display panels for the nailers also. This would require creating all machining in the part editor. This would get your cabinet but you could not re-size this cabinet.
I found early on that it was sometimes better for me to change my construction techniques to work with eCabinets than it was to make eCabinets yield to my way of building things.
You still have the choice. Take the time to design the cabinet using the part editor or modify your construction.
To my way of thinking the nailer back corner cabinet is too labor intensive and costs you more in the long run compared to the 3/4\" back. I used to put 5/8\" backs on these cabinets but it wasn't worth having to introduce another material just to save a couple of pounds weight.
You will still have to run the center back through a saw. I don't think cutting the miter on a router would be cost effective.
Kerry

Gene Davis · Post by **Gene Davis** » Sun, Aug 12 2007, 6:30PM

Thank you, Kerry.

I took the cab submitted by the earlier poster, made some mods to meet my no-toekick base standards, did a couple other insigificant things to make it meet the sizing standards I'm doing for basecabs, and now have it parked as a seed.

Help me out a little more, though.

If I resize the cab, knock out the handle (and weight reducing) circlecuts in the top, it makes the kind of 24x24 piehinged door corner cab we use for intersecting wall runs.

I want this 24x24 as a wallcab seed. How do I trick eCabs into thinking of the resized unit as a wallcab instead of a basecab, so it more readily pops into place when doing room layouts?

Michael Yeargain · Post by **Michael Yeargain** » Sun, Aug 12 2007, 6:42PM

Gene,

e_cabinets will always think of the cabinets according to their gender~. And the way to trick e_cabinets is to set the install height in the resize dialog just as you would any other cabinet. But remember e_cabinets still thinks of an upper as an upper, so your install height must be the cabinet height plus toe kick.

That is... for a wall...............................

......... that thinks its a base.

Thermwood / eCabinet Systems

Susan corner cab construction

Susan corner cab construction

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