Kinda off the subject of eCabs - TWD CNC machines

[Donald Thomson]

Hi All.

I'm starting to think about upgrading my CNC to a TWD machine. I am a two man shop and I crank out a lot of plywood cabinet parts. I've invested hundreds of hours developing some very complete seed cabinet librarys and don't care to switch to another design program.

My questions are to those who own TWD CNC's.

1. How reliable are they for high production throughput?
2. How's the integration between eCabs and the hardware?
3. How is support from TWD when you have a problem (24/7 support?)?
4. How responsive is your sales/customer service/technical support rep to your requests/issues?
5. Experienced turn around time on getting machine repaired?
6. I have single phase power in my shop. Will TWD machines run on single phase or do you need three phase power?
7. How helpful was TWD in getting the machine up and operating when you first got it?
8. How is the machine delivered (fully assembled/some assembly required)? Do I need heavy lifting equipment to unload and position it in the shop?
9. Does TWD help in getting the machine powered up, tuned up and aligned?

I'd be switching from ShopBot where you pretty much do all this yourself. A ShopBot CNC comes in lots of pieces you need to assemble.

Thanks in advance for any advice!

Don

[Clint Buechlein]

Don,

I'll answer what I can and let other uses chime in with their own particular experience:

1. All our machines are production machines. We have users from factories to small buildings with the machines running three shifts to being used a few times a month.
2. What you use in the ShopBot link is similar to what is on Thermwood machines, just an earlier version. Our machines use Control Nesting that has a more usable interface, along with more options. The process of creating a .twd and loading it on the machine is the same.
3. We hare here from 7:30-4 CST Monday-Friday (excluding holidays).
4. I can't speak for sales as it isn't my area. Software support, we generally respond within the hour if not sooner on emails, phone calls we are available as long as we aren't on another call. Service is typically the same, provided they aren't being overwhelmed.
5. This will depend on what is scheduled and when an issue comes about requiring a service tech on site. If your issue comes about on a Thursday or Friday, we may not be able to get a tech to you until the following week. Usually scheduling is decent that if we know early enough in the week we should be to work the issue in while a tech is out already.
6. Our machines require 480v three phase. There are phase converters and transformers that can help in this area if you are unable to get the power directly. A little out of my expertise though.
7. When you buy the machine you also get training with the machine here at Thermwood. We have smaller machines that are used to teach the basics of how code is created and the machines are run. Outside of that, we here to help with specific questions. We offer on site services to get you going from there.
8. This depends on the machine and your shop. Typically machine is shipped fully assembled, provided it can fit through your door both in width and height as the control cabinet is usually mounted to the table for shipping. Loading and unloading the machine from the semi trailer will depend on your shop. Sometimes customers use a rollback to pull the machine off the semi trailer, then use the rollback to drop of the machine in the shop. Depending on the machine there may be fork lift points to pick it from the side of the trailer with a forklift.
9. With purchase of the machine, a technician will come to you to do set up on the machine. They level the machine, align the head, verify pickup and drop of locations for the tool changer, make sure the machine is square, and the boards surfaced so the machine is ready to use. From that point, if you have something to test cut and tools, you can test cut to make sure everything is good to go.

With your experience in ShopBot Link, you'll be able to easily clear the largest hurdle of getting Control Nesting up and running correctly. Most new users find that to be the hardest part of a new machine (at least from our experience). A Thermwood machine should be much easier to run than your ShopBot. Training here will fill the gaps on what is different between our machine and a ShopBot.

-Clint-

[Jeremy Schiffer]

I'll chime in, Donald. We have two Thermwoods. A 2008 model CS-41, and a 2015 model CS-45.

1. How reliable are they for high production throughput?
Once the initial kinks are worked out (as with any complex machinery) they are extremely reliable. This is industrial "big iron" equipment.

2. How's the integration between eCabs and the hardware?
Absolutely seamless. We've never had an issue loading an eCabinets TWD file onto the machines. It just works.

3. How is support from TWD when you have a problem (24/7 support?)?
Here's where my review starts to glow a little less. The support we got on our first machine (the 2008 model CS-41) during the 1-year warranty period was excellent. Whatever issues we had (mostly the aforementioned initial kinks) were dealt with quickly, professionally, and to my ultimate satisfaction. I can't say the same for our experience with our second machine (the 2015 model CS-45). During the initial 1-year warranty period, we had a few issues (again, see comment regarding initial kinks, all machines will have them) and even though they were mostly trivial issues, I didn't get the same level of professional, courteous service as before. Got the feeling I was being a bother. One issue was the spring pins that hold the dust hood on - a couple of them just fell off during machining. Got under the bit and ruined it, as well as the parts being cut. We had had the machine about 3 months at this point. So, easy warranty thing I thought. New pins were sent, with the expectation from Thermwood that I was to construct the specialized tool needed to crimp them into place. Had this been out of warranty, that would be no problem. But it seemed a little silly to expect me to take a few hours to make a tool to do my own warranty repair. So I asked if they could send their tool, with the agreement that I would return it when I made the repair. That was frowned upon, but eventually agreed to. I got the tool, made the repair, and had it back in the mail within 3 days of receiving it. Lo and behold, a month or so later, I received a bill in the mail for the tool, for about $400. It took a couple of months, a couple more bills, and a few phone calls to get that straight.

4. How responsive is your sales/customer service/technical support rep to your requests/issues?
Our salesman for the CS-41 was Dennis Blackburn (rest in peace, Dennis). He was a terrific man, who went above and beyond not only to make the initial sale, but ALWAYS stayed in contact with us, even years after we bought the machine. I cannot say enough good about Dennis, he is missed.
For our CS-45, I can't even remember our salesman's name. Once we committed to buy the machine, we never heard from him again. We ended up dealing mostly with Jim Bullis (another great guy, by the way!)

5. Experienced turn around time on getting machine repaired?
Can't answer this one, as we have never called on Thermwood to make repairs onsite.

6. I have single phase power in my shop. Will TWD machines run on single phase or do you need three phase power?
This will make you happy: You do not need 3 phase power run to your shop. But you WILL need a rotary phase converter, because the Thermwood machines do require 3 phase. (ProTip: We have both American Rotary, and North America brand phase converters. Go with American Rotary.)

7. How helpful was TWD in getting the machine up and operating when you first got it?
They will get the machine up and running - when they leave, you'll be ready to cut parts.

8. How is the machine delivered (fully assembled/some assembly required)? Do I need heavy lifting equipment to unload and position it in the shop?
The machine is fully assembled. For example, you don't have to bolt the spindle motor to the Z axis... You will need equipment and manpower to get it into your shop. It's a huge, heavy thing. Beyond those obvious statements, you just have to figure it out based on your shop location and ability to be clever when it comes to moving huge heavy things.

9. Does TWD help in getting the machine powered up, tuned up and aligned?
See answer #7.

Something that you didn't ask about, but I will point out anyway: The support and responsiveness of the eCabs team is really incredible. Having access to the eCabs software AND the responsive support that comes with it is really what sold us on buying Thermwood machinery.

Sorry for the essay. Long but honest.

[Jeremy Schiffer]

Aaaaand for fun, here is our CS-45 5x12 machine on our dock just after we got it pulled out of the semi trailer. As you can see, our shop has a low ceiling. We have to remove the controller from the table to get it thru the door. See the Bobcat inside the shop, that was used to pull it off the trailer, and eventually into the shop. Once there, we were able to maneuver it into position with 2 pallet jacks. Just take it slow and easy, and pre-plan each movement, and it will go fine. Leverage and balance are your friends...

[Will Williamson]

If you want to call me, tomorrow morning, Saturday, I will answer all your questions 810 310 1111 but Jerremy answered just fine I will agree with him on all aspects. Thermwood tech support is the very best none better in 13 years I have only replaced the spindle once at about 9 years old

[Donald Thomson]

THank you ALL, for the feedback on TWD machines!

Will, what would be the best time for you to call?

[Will Williamson]

Before noon, my time, eastern standard.

[Neville Bastian]

I bought my MTR21 in 2008 and it has been the longest cnc I have had. In 1993 I had a Morbadelli manual tool change, Then A mastwerwood 3 tool change, A Tekcel ( local Australian machine) 10 tool change and then the Thermwood.
Did have some teething problems as it was made on a Friday. To Thermwood's credit they sent out two techs at two different occassions as the then Aussie distributor Doug Gilford got into strife. RIP.
I won't write too much which I tend to do but make sure you have plenty of air and a decent air dryer as I messed up my spindle in 3 years due to moisture.
The support is second to none plus they talk English.
The machines never go out of date unlike the European models. Try and buy a motherboard like I did last year and it wont be available. Thermwood had one.
I am running windows XP but you can update to 10.
The cream on the cake is free Ecabinets. Buying a Cad package that is decent is 25K plus.Keeping it current is expensive.
Looking forward to some install photos like Jeremys Bobcat. He is only showing that ,now its out of warranty.
Regards Neville

[Donald Thomson]

make sure you have plenty of air and a decent air dryer as I messed up my spindle in 3 years due to moisture.
Regards Neville

Was wondering about this comment Neville? I've got a 25 gallon compressor and a 30 gallon compressor. Would I need more then that? What is the compressed air used for? By your comment, I'm guessing maybe spindle cooling?

Thanks,

Don

[Jeremy Schiffer]

Compressed air is used when changing tools. Not exactly sure how the mechanism works, but since it is blowing thru the spindle during a tool change, you want clean dry air. (Do as I say, not as I do )
That is all the air is used for, unless you have the automatic/switch operated vacuum valves on your table (as opposed to the manual pull-out handle), in which case air is used to operate those as well. But there is no constant air demand from the machine, either one of your air compressors is more than big enough.

[Clint Buechlein]

The only need need air for on the machine is tool changes, placement pins, and vacuum valve to apply vacuum to the table as Jeremy said. Placement pins and vacuum valve do not require much air.

Optionally you can have air assist which blows air under the boards to make loading and unloading heavier sheets easier. There is a rake option that will also use air assist to unload the sheets for you. There is also automatic lubrication for the rails that requires a small amount of air while the machine is in motion. You can also get a cold air gun that blows air into the dust hood to help cool the tool. And also you can get an auto labeler option with some machines. The foot that grabs and places the labels is air actuated. All of those options will require additional compressed air.

The spindles themselves are cooled by an electric fan. On some machines you can option to have a liquid cooled spindle.

I cannot stress enough importance of dry air. Without dry air, you will get moisture inside the spindle causing corrosion and lots of money spent.

-Clint-

[Mark McCallum]

Hi Don
2 cents of rambling.
I kind of agree with all of the above.
We bought our machine 2 years ago and it’s been an interesting experience,.... but well worthwhile.
I hardly looked at other machines because of the time we had put into ecabs.
We could have gone with a local manufacturer here in Australia, just 40 minutes up the road, It was a bit cheaper. (about $40000)
But I considered the Thermwood was a more solid machine and we had invested so much time already into ecabs, I could see us spending weeks on more learning curves, plus external software licenses were going to be an ongoing cost.
Who knows if they would be better or worse? At least you know the advantages and limitations of ecabs.

( I just wish Ecabs was easier to use all round. (kitchen layout wise, user friendly wise)) nudge nudge wink wink.

The other company emphasized a large service division and here in Aus, Thermwood have 2 guys on the other side of the continent, so I was banking on reliability.
(It may be poor logic, but that's what I was using)
The thing about ecabs is that it’s a controller interface for the machine, and once you can use it well, you are all on your way to slipping straight into production the way you like it.
So you have that one nailed.
You would have to be a huge step ahead of 99 % of cabinetmakers who are totally computer illiterate.
I think that’s why they went hard and developed the way of the cut centre system, its costs more for the ease of use but it’s just too hard for most cabinetmakers to bother to learn all the programming stuff.

Particularly if you can avail yourself of the machine training at Thermwood, that would have to be a big leg up.
I also like the upgrade path for the future, the machine frames are so solid replacing tracks and motors seems to me to be a viable option,
But I'm looking optimistically at 15 to 20 years or more, by then I should be well and truly dusted.
I personally took a while to understand the controller interface and screens.
I had no experience with CNC tooling or cutters so it taken us a while to get up to speed, and with your shopbot experience, you are so far ahead it could be measured in light years.

Yes, you will be more than ready to go from day one.
The guys set it up and Its all calibrated and ready to go.
Looking at the shopbot machines on the website compared to the Thermwood build they look a bit light on muscle?. (No offense...)
And if you already put a shopbot together it would be like stepping into a Ferrari.

The way I put it, even though I don't know what I am doing, with a Thermwood I can look like I know what I'm am doing.)
You just have to look at them, they way they are built, and see that they (Thermwood) love their machines. I bought the entry level model, so there are no pretty bells and whistles on the machine but under the hood its very solid.

In my opinion Who ever you buy your machine from you can expect some drama.
Its a complex machine, its not a drill press, or panel saw or something basic.

Installation wise, Could things have gone better?, In a dream world its possible.
We had local location and timing issues, (no need to bore you)
I've had issues but the local guys have been around and to be totally fair have done their utmost and all been resolved. (Really, they are very good guys)
(When I say around, they are 4000km away, so they weren’t there to hold our hand, but they solved all the problems and are still there to help.)
Also you have the ever patient Clint here
Often I have found with CNC problems A lot seem to get resolved with time and thinking.
So while a cabinetmakers is saying knock it out and cut a new one, the cnc guys are saying, OK, lets think about this for a bit and it might just resolve its self. Often it does.

To me I would say Thermwood and the guys committed to service and quality. (Just my opinion. )

We use an air dryer with inline filters, It stops the vales on the machines gumming up, Edger, CNC and air tools.
Also for spaying contact glue or lacquers it keeps oil and water out of the lines.

[Mark McCallum]

Hi Jeremy
I like your slice of heaven,
Every factory should have a pleasant outlook.

[Neville Bastian]

One small concideration is running costs. We have two 360 M3 Becker pumps. Originally was sold one pump 500 M3 but due to problems in Australia I had a free upgrade. These pumps really gulp down power (like a Cadilac towing a tri axle caravan). I think some guys are running inverters. Clint might explain how they work. In reality you need very little suction for holding the sheet down but as parts cut into the spoil sheet vac is lost and small parts move. If you can control the pumps speed you can save a lot of power and wear and tear on the pumps. Might take 5 years for payback but only you know your expection of staying in the trade. We have 60 solar panels on our workshop. That pulled the power bill back dramatically.
The other item I recommend is the auto lube. The time that saves is at least a couple hours a week and it doesnt get forgotten.
Stickers we do by basic brother A4 printer in colour and very quick. Would love a auto labeler. They are so neat to watch work and they get put in the correct position and orientation.
Hope all goes well. Regards Neville

[Jeremy Schiffer]

Hi Jeremy
I like your slice of heaven,
Every factory should have a pleasant outlook.

Thanks Mark, it's peaceful. I wouldn't trade it for anything - except something more peaceful

Looking forward to some install photos like Jeremys Bobcat. He is only showing that ,now its out of warranty.
Regards Neville

Very perceptive, Neville!
Unfortunately I don't have a picture of it immediately after the delivery truck left - but the center leg was right at the edge of the loading dock, propped up on that 4x6 like it is in this picture. So almost half the machine was hanging off the dock (it's almost 16' long). Since we were controlling the balance point, it was totally under control. But it LOOKED scary!